Latest News, as of November 1 / 2008

 Latest Updates

This is a copy of the interview for Angie's List we did for their July 2008 magazine about:

We have a new address (7/07)
We were located in Lake Oswego for the last 4 years, and West Linn before that, but we recently moved across town into a newer place with a larger shop space out in the country with horses and cows to go with our 2 pygmy goats, Husky dog and 2 cats. It is also across from a small air strip and a golf course (even though I will never have the leisure time to play). It is in Eagle Creek, just 5 miles North of Estacada. The address is listed on our Contact web page.

What about getting a bid for new gutters?
I am pretty booked up at the moment and with this comprehensive web site I would be busy all day doing bids and not get any work done. So as opposed to suspending my bidding all together, and in an effort to increase quality and keep costs down for the benefit of my clients I have decided to alter how I do quotes for new local gutter work. I am encouraging my potential clients to form an active partnership with me in the bidding process through e-mail first, like I have been doing with all of my non-local clients for custom copper sheet metal fabrication over the last 4 years. Instead of wasting so much gas and time driving out to potential client's houses to get measurements to write up bids, much of this can be done on-line. These days everyone seems to have a digital camera.

I suppose any contractor worth a darn would be booked out quite a ways. Even during the slow season good honest contractors are hard to come by. From the evidence shown on my web site here I would like to think I am well worth the wait, but that of coarse is your call.

This process may also may save you hundreds of $ from getting cheated by other contractors by knowing just what your actual gutter and downspout footage really is. I have heard from many clients how other contractors claimed their house has much more footage than my bids, so even though they charge less per foot, they are actually making more money though this deception.

Fortunately most people know how to e-mail some digital photos. Get some shots of your house taken from different angles. I have done my homework here to make this a smooth and simple process with copies of the form I use (shown below) and a list of the prices I charge at: http://dmr-gutters.com/fs/prices.htm. I will still do on-site quotes for complicated jobs or other special needs, but I would just like you to make an effort to follow my instructions here first, so you better know what you are getting into with my service.

Are you willing to measure our house?
Yes, it is true that the Oregon's Construction Contractors Board (CCB) requires all licensed contractors to provide any potential client with a free realistic quote for work in their field within a reasonable geographical area (about 30 miles). I fully agree how this is an important issue, so that homeowners can shop around and get plenty of comparative quotes for the work they need. Each on-site quote I do costs me over $30, aside from the 2+ hours of my time to drive over to measure a house. As stated above I will still offer free on-site quotes to those who are not easily able to follow my instructions here and need special help in this process. As always, I still do not do on-site quotes for small jobs like gutter cleaning or just leaf screen installation.

What happened to the cost of metal?
All sheet metal prices suddenly took a drastic rise in early 2006. One core issue that I had personally observed is scrap metal for recycling sky rocketing to 3 times the value. Steel scrap metal was around 2 to 3 cents per pound for steel, 25 to 45 cents per pound for aluminum, and up to 65 to 85 cents per pound for copper through out the 90's and several years into this century. Now aluminum is in the price range of copper. Copper shot up to $2.40 a pound within the span of a month and peaked at $2.60. That is over triple cost. In mid 2008 it had peaked at $3 a pound, but then suddenly dropped to $1 in late October. I still have yet to see this drive the cost of new materials.

The prices of past projects listed on my web site was the actual costs for my work at the time it was done, but may not accurately reflect how much new projects will run now with the cost of sheet metal up so high. I haven't needed to triple the cost of my work, but it has gone up 40% to cover this added cost for aluminum gutters.

I had heard several reasons why the cost had risen so high, but that is not relevant here. The issue here is how I have no control over this or any idea where those prices will go in the future. It's impossible to say for sure, but for example; do you see the cost of gas going back down to $1.50 a gallon?

 Lead-time

I am currently booked about 5 to 6 months out to do the actual work, once we have worked out all the contract details and received your 1/3 deposit. We entered the Fall Season, which is the busiest time each year for gutter work sales; with the leaves detaching and clog up old gutter systems, which reminds Homeowners they need to deal with this problem.

I work all year long by myself. Some see this as one of my least favorite advantages of how slow I am compared to larger gutter contractors with teams of work crews. With what I put into each job it will take me a good 2 week to do what they slap up in a day (no joke). I believe this personal attention with the 30+ advantages I offer over what little those speed demons can deliver is a priceless advantage. In this modern world of fast food that detail will deture a large number of potential clients, but I am fine with that. I rather like having clients that are willing to wait a little while, who appreciate the extra effort I put into each project. 

This unique and elaborate web site has gotten me a lot of attention. I could be driving around doing bids all day and into the evening and not be able to get any work done if I responded to each inquiry, so I had to changed the way I do bids to help pre-qualify clients a bit. Are you that special person? If you want that kind of special care brought to your gutter replacement I am your guy, but I first need some effort from you. It should only take about 15 minutes for you to get rough measurements of your house from the ground and list the measurements on the gutter chart I have provided here below.

Please read this whole web page that will walk you through the fairly simple process. I have done my homework here to make this pretty easy and painless, which should not take more than an hour in all.

What about Rush Orders:
If time is of the issue and you can do the installation, or have someone else who can, my Parts Deliveries web page has installation instructions, recommended list of tools, and prices. I can usually make a delivery of the professional parts I use within a week or so of getting all the details worked out and receiving your payment. I can also fit in some simple sheet metal fabrications, like roof flashing parts.

Be forewarned: If you ask me to fit your project in ahead of those I had already contracted with, that would be asking me to commit fraud. You would only convince me that I cannot do business with you at all, or feel it necessary to cancel our contract.

For a good honest free resource to find reliable contractors
in your area that your neighbors have used and reviewed
.

 Estimates

You won't need exact measurements. It should only take you 15 minutes to get rough measurements from the ground with a common tape measure. As it states in the bottom left corner of the chart, you would only be charged for what materials stay on your house, so no one is cheated either way.

Click on the small images here to get a better look. There is also an example of an actual bid on the right to see how to fill it in.

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/BidChart.pdf

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/PriceSheet07.pdf

Warning:
I have heard many cases where other gutter contractors had claimed to have a lower price per foot than us, but for some reason there bids had still come in hundreds and even thousands more than mine.  This shows how they make up for it by inflating the calculated measure of gutter parts needed for your house, so beware of shady contractors.  This process should help save you from being taken by those unethical gutter contractors. One of the local No-clog gutter competitors had submitted a bid for aluminum parts to a recent client (late 2006) that was over $1k above the cost of my bid for copper gutters with every advantage I offer (I have proof). Keep in mind that copper cost me over 7 times the cost of aluminum parts. I may have the last name (Rich), but who do you think is looking to get rich fast here?

(1) Rough measure of your horizontal roof lines that requires gutters and downspouts. No need for exact measurements. Taking measurements from the ground with a tape measure is all I do when doing an on-site quote. I loosely list downspout lengths rounding it off to the nearest foot # in even numbers like 8, 10, 12, 14.
(2) What type of metal you want me to use: aluminum or copper?
(3) If you just have rafter tails, or if you have fascia boards across the rafter tails for the gutter attachment?
(4) The type of roofing you have and the pitch of your roof for evaluation of difficulty?
(5) Which gutters are more than one story high?
(6) Make sure to add any digital pictures of your house, so I can see if there are any issues you may have missed.  I have a cable modem, so file size is not an issue for me.

The more info you send, the more chance that I can give you an accurate ceiling cost for your project.  If I am a bit off, that is OK, since I always re-price the final cost to reflect only the material actually installed on your house.  This way no one looses.

You are welcome to arrange for a trip out to my shop to personally see demonstration of the gutter parts I use. I had painted aluminum gutters on the house there in Lake Oswego, with a metal roof for the most extreme example of rain, snow, and debris management, along with one set of rain-cups for a downspout, but that house was demolished to make way for a housing development. We have addresses of several houses on this web site that you can drive over to see closer to your area. Our address is on my Contact web page.

If you are willing to do a little 'homework' to assist me in this process that would be very helpful and rewarding for you as well. More of a partnership if you will. This way I can shift that expense to more valuable avenues for my clients benefit to keep my quality standards up and costs down. I will still be happy to do free on-site bids for the elderly, disabled, or for large complicated projects, as long as you are local to me (within 20 miles or so).

To date; Corvalis and Wheeler on the Oregon Coast is the farthest I have gone for gutter work, but I do have to charge for the extra mileage for jobs outside my local Portland, Oregon area.  I am not licensed to work outside Oregon, so I do not do any quotes for Washington residence.

If I need to do an on-site quote; I will take measurements and write up a bid for your consideration there on the spot.  There is usually a pleasant surprise at the end of each job, since I only charge for what material lengths remain on your house.  Please e-mail me with house photos, address, contact info, and any other details you think is relevant to your needs, so I can service you with a bid and show you samples.

If you feel you need to talk to me about your special needs you can call my mobile phone and speak with me personally at 503 351-7082, Although, I may be up on a ladder or driving, so I may not be able to talk for long or take notes.

 Deposit Required

I had required 1/2 down payment for over a decade, but with my being booked so far out I realized this was not a reasonable amount, so I dropped it to just 1/3 down. I have had very few clients have issue with this policy. You are buying this slot in my schedule of 2 to 3 weeks of my time, which pushes out the clients just after this sale. If I did not collect this deposit some clients may forget we had a contract and have the work done by someone else who could get to it sooner, trading sloppy work for speed.

How Can We Trust You?
If you do not trust me, you should not do business with me at all. I would like to think my Business Integrity Award from the Better Business Bureau should give you confidence in my ethics and responsibility to my clients.  I have had less than 5% of my potential clients express discomfort with my deposit policy.  Perhaps since much of my work is from referrals, so they already know I can be trusted.  This has not been much of an issue.

This is with my exclusive $ adjustment I make to the final cost, that reflect only the cost of gutter parts installed on your house, down to 1/4" measure (see my Quality Specifications web page for details).

For Custom Copper Orders
As to copper fabrication orders; full payment is required on small projects before I will begin fabrication, but for large projects over $500 I accept 1/2 down to lock your project into my schedule. Then the final payment before shipment.  By then I will have provided you with plenty of digital photos of the progress, so you will see the project before shipment. For orders over $2k I only need 1/3 deposit.

 Do-it-yourself Gutter Parts Delivery:

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/DIYchart.pdf

Will you measure our house for us?
For the parts delivery service I offer, just like with any lumber yard delivery, this does not include a free evaluation of how much parts you will need. If you are not able to figure that out for yourself, you have no business attempting to install your own gutters. It is one qualifier that I insist on, since all my potential client have gotten horribly offended at the notion of me charging to get exact measurements for them and evaluate their needs, as well as providing my advice for improvements.

This chart will help you be able to chart your house for gutters and make an order of all the parts you would need.  Print it out, fill it in and send it to me as a scanned digital image file through e-mail for corrections or adjustments. Or you can still snail-mail it to me and I will work it out. Digital photos of your house will also be very helpful if you don't mind some free advice.

 Emergency Service Questions:

But sadly I am only one person and have not found someone I could train that would care about my reputation like I do. I would like to have a life as well, but I will not sacrifice quality for a better production volume.

I can do some emergency work day or night if you are willing to pay a $500 cash emergency service call charge to see what I can do to solve your immediate crisis, but that has rarely happened.  There is also a good chance that your problem may not be your gutters (see below).  You could have a defective rain sewer pipe or the ground water table has risen above the floor of your basement.  Local building code does require gutters here in the NW only for the issue of long term ground erosion under foundations. Which is something that does not occur over the course of a couple years, but over a few decades, where serious damage could occur. So gutter replacement is not usually an emergency issue that can not wait several months.

Basement flooding?
If you have a basement that is flooding, this is a sign that you may have a much more serious problem to address than just gutters, like:
(a) The water table in your area may be getting too high, and your basement should not have been permitted to be in the plans when the house was built. There are lots of areas around this metro area where the ground water table gets too high in the rainy seasons and basements are not within the code for that area.
(b) You may have clogged or damaged rain sewer pipes that are not able to carry the rain water safely away from you foundation?  Roto-Rooter type contractors are usually successful in clearing out these sort of clogs and using a camera to see if there is a damaged pipe.  You can test your underground pipes by running a full open garden hose into it for 5 to 10 minutes to see if it backs up.
(c) If you are on a hill side, or you just have a raised property on that side of your house, you may need a French drain installed around part of your foundation?

What if I need new gutters before I can sell our house?
If you have a signed contract with me to replace the gutters, that should satisfy any prospective buyer or those doing the paperwork for the sale no matter how far booked out I am. Especially after you explain how I am well worth the wait.

What if I will be re-roofing soon?
If you will be needing a new roof in the near future it is best to install new gutters after such a major re-roofing project, since most roofers tend to be brutal to gutters.  My gutters are removable, but it is rare that roofing contractors will bother to remove your gutter before the damage is done.  If the roofer claims that he needs the gutters on for a safety reason, this is very alarming.  This indicates they will not be adhearing to OCA safety regulation.  If they plan to grab onto the gutters incase they fall off, this mean they need to rethink their safety procedures much more carefully.  They should be working safe enough that this is not a concern at all.

What about working around our exterior painting project?
Where it comes to exterior painting, again new gutter should be installed afterwards.  If there is one of the pre-painted color shown on my web site that would work well as a trim color, it will save a good deal of trouble and cost to have me come early to remove the old gutters for the painters to work their magic.  Then when they are done, I will install the new gutters, so the painters will not need to tape off the gutters and downspouts.  They pre-painted colors are a lot better than any paint they could put on these new gutters.  It is a baked on enamel finish.

What about the City asking us to disconnect our downspouts from our rain sewer system?
If you are in an area where the City has encouraged people to disconnect off their rain sewer system, You would do well to reconnect it as soon as possible.  This is one of the stupidest things City officials have ever done.  You have building code enforcement requiring gutters, which are no good if you do not have a way to carry the rain water safely away from your foundation more than 10' away.  You are better off without any gutters and have the rain dribble evenly along the roof edge, than to dump all that water in one spot out of your downspouts.  The City will not be accepting responsibility for the damage that will cause to your foundation.  Even if you have no basement, to jack up your house and pour a new concrete foundation is a nightmare you never want to have to deal with. It will make your house nearly worthless.  The city does not even give you a discount on your sewer bill for disconnecting.  Even if disconnecting were to only kill the plants and grass in that area from all that extra rain water, you have literally nothing to gain by disconnecting your downspouts.

Complicated custom work?
A nice couple out in Forest Grove had paid $23k to have their house paint stripped down.  Then another $13k to have it primed and given a 4 tone paint job.  They signed with me (8-04) for an $8k fascia rebuild and copper gutter job that also required a lot of special prep work before installing the copper gutters.  That project alone took me a good 4+ weeks to complete.  Go to my Kistler Gutter Job web page for more detail and photos.

They told me how they had been trying to get a bid on this gutter work for several years now, and had not found a single contractor willing to tackle their project.  They were thrilled to finally discover my web site, and see a contractor that had already done the kind of work they needed on my custom fascia web page.  As far as I know there is no other gutter contractors in this area who is able or willing to do this sort of complicated custom work.  Feel free to write me if you know differently and I will revise this statement.

 My Toll-free Phone #

I tend to do most of my correspondence through e-mail, but I got a toll-free phone number (displayed only on my contact Info web page), so non-local clients can be sure to reach me in a hurry if their e-mail was not received.  When writing me, I am very prompt to respond, so if you do not hear back from me within 24 to 48 hours, I probably did not receive your e-mail, so feel free to give me a ring.

If you are not calling about having me do work for you; please do not call me to assist you with problems you may have encountered from other contractors.

 My Latest Improvements

I am always looking to improve my installation and service to the highest available standards, at a reasonable cost.  If you have any new products or have ideas I may not have considered, feel free to contact me. Below is some examples of my never ending struggle to find the best possible tools, service, and products:

• Larger shop space (7-07)

• Lowering the amount of the deposit required to schedule in new work from 1/2 down to only 1/3 initial payment (8-06)

• Larger SS screws for DS attachment w/#3 Phillips slot (6-06)

• A pneumatic rivet setter speeding up work (5-06)

• Impact drivers; substantially lowering the damage to the softer SS screws (3-06)

• Larger pipe cleats (4-05)

• More rivets to attach the pipe cleats on the back of the downspouts (1-05)

• Stainless steel screws for gutter and downspout attachment (6-04)

• Two screws per hidden hanger for the gutter support: = 1 screw per foot, or 4x building code (4-04)

• Beginning our custom copper work for client across the country (4-03)

• Longer Leaf-catchers and reducers using a 15" metal, instead of 12", and redesigned for less splattering outside the housing (4-03)

• More rivets used to seal the corners (2-03)

• 24 volt cordless chop saw for cutting downspouts, instead of a hack saw I had been using (8-02)

• The exclusive distributor of stronger wider hinged leaf screens  (4-02)

• Larger improved gutter machine trailer (4-01)

• Doing most of the prep work at our shop, instead of at the job site (9-00)

• Training my wife Tia in the art of gutter replacement (3-99)

Examples of my ideals and quality standards:
I finished a job in Milwaukie Oregon where I wrapped large 4x12 roof trusses with pre-painted aluminum sheet-metal that extended out about 2' past the roof and were getting quite weathered. I normally use much thicker .027 gage aluminum than used by most all siding contractors, who use a thin .019 or less for covering wood that is not covered by the vinyl siding. I found that I was no longer able to get the 4'x 10' sheets I had gotten in the past. Although they had some thicker .040 and .063 sheets left over from an over purchase a while back. For even less money while using the same .027 aluminum I could have covered these beams with a sheet of 12" wide gutter coil for one side and a 15" gutter coil to cover the other side and bottom, but I look to increase my standards when maintaining them is not an option, instead of lowering. That would have added a seam along the bottom that I had planned not to have.

Without asking the client for more money to cover this much more expensive metal, I gave her better quality than I originally bid. It was so thick I was not able to bend it with my equipment, so that cost me more as well to have it bent on stronger machinery. The client was very pleased with the results and told me several times how it looked better than she imagined it would.

I also have begun to mount downspouts with dome head stainless steel #3 Phillips screws, where most all other Installers will still use cheap steel nails that are hard to remove for unclogging the underground sewer pipes, or painting behind the downspouts.  The main reason these other contractors will not upgrade to screws is because it is cheaper to replace a lost or stolen hammer than it is to replace a $350 cordless drill (like I use), for their employees if they damage or steal it.

My focus has always been continuing to offering the best possible product and installation for a reasonable price (see my Ethics philosophy web page to read my thoughts on this issue).

 Clients Not Local to Portland Oregon

Non-local Client Orders
I service a lot of non-local client with custom copper fabrication, but I am not licensed to do any installation work outside Oregon, or to do any sort of roofing work. Within Oregon State and a suitable transportations fee added I can do gutter replacement outside our metro area: beyond the 20 mile radius shown on the Portland Oregon Thomas Guide. However, I do sell some unique gutter parts and custom copper sheet metal fabrication to clients across the continental USA (see my 'Shipping' web page for details).

I have been getting a lot of custom copper sheet metal fabrication orders from my web sites from clients across the Nation.  It seems there are not very many web site like these, who market custom copper sheet metal fabrication services on-line. This has begun to make up a good 75% of my work these days.  I have now made a whole new separate  non-local shipping web page to handle information for those type of orders.

Since many of these are simple projects that may only take a few hours to make; I could work on them in the evening in my workshop, and slip in between substantial projects I have, avoiding my normal wait time. Once I have all the details worked out; it may only take a week or two. Then what ever time it takes me to design, fabricate, and package it.  Full payment is required before I will work on it, and the check needs to clear before shipment.  I will provided you digital photos of the progress, so you will see the item before it ships.

 Latest Web Pages

Below is a list of web sites and web pages I published in the last couple years:

• PDF forms
• The division of my weathervanes page
• The division of my chimney cap and roof cap web pages into 97 separate pages for better and faster navigation with more details and photos.
• Kensington 28 Chimney Caps
• http://innerserenity.org
• http://mind-temple.com
• Weathervanes
• Finials
• My Downspout Comparison page
• Gamenara Aluminum Gutters
• Moss Control & Treatment

For the time being my spam problem is very small now through this new web hosting company 'godaddy.com', but if your ISP is blocked from me, I may not be able to reply.  I do check my e-mail at least twice a day, so if I have not responded to your e-mail within 24 hours, call me to see that I got your letter.

What can be done?
One way I can work to combat spam is probably the easiest thing you could do; never patronize a spammer, phone solicitors, door-to-door salespersons, or junk-mail.  No matter how tempting their offer!  If they cannot hawk their junk, they will not be able to afford to buy these contact lists, and it will stop them if we all do our part, or not do it, as it were, for they are ruining the Internet as a good inexpensive uncensored communication tool.

Other Helpful Roofing Information
For some valuable advice with regards to roofing and rain management issues check out my:

(a) Gutter Installation
(b) Gutter Debris Protection Options
(c) Roofing Quality Standards
(d) Chimney Flashing
(e) Moss Control & Treatment

web pages for answers and solutions that could save you thousands of $ and a great deal of anguish.

If you do find this information very helpful, feel free to send us a $ tip for the assistance I so freely have published on the web here for your benefit, like you might tip a waitress.  Heck, send us a gift certificate for a candle lit dinner for two. <LOL>