Lead-time

 Latest Updates

The first of July 2009 we moved back to the West side in Portland Oregon, so Tia can be closer in to the Hospitals and Birthing Centers for her apprenticeship with The Andaluz Waterbirth Center. Our new mailing address will be listed in our e-mail correspondence.

On Halloween of 2008 I did some warranty work on a gutter job I had done back in 2003 where some of the screw heads holding the hidden hangers had broken off, which is an example why I had upgraded my standards in early 2004 to a pair of stainless steel screws per hanger after that unusual snow storm we had. Here again in the winter of 08 with a record snow fall for this area we had not seen in around 40 years took down a lot of gutters. All my gutter installations since 2004 held up without incident.  Another clear reminder of why I go the extra mile for each of my clients, so that does not happen. This is a dramatic shot sent in by a recent client to show how strong my gutter installations are.

This is a copy of the interview for Angie's List we did for their July 2008 magazine about:

What happened to the cost of metal?
All sheet metal prices suddenly took a drastic rise in early 2006. One core issue that I had personally observed is scrap metal for recycling sky rocketing to 3 times the value. From 1992 to 2006 steel scrap metal was around 2 cents per pound, aluminum was about 40 cents, and copper was 80 cents. Aluminum went up to the price range of what copper was and copper peaked at $3 a pound. It held steady for the last couple years with no sign of dropping, but in late 2008 it suddenly dropped down to just $1 a pound. I still have yet to see this drive the cost of new materials down, but we see metal on the rise yet again, much like gas prices.

The prices of past projects listed on my web site was the actual costs for my work at the time it was done, but may not accurately reflect how much new projects would run now. I haven't needed to triple the cost of my work, but it had gone up 40% to cover this added cost for the metal.

I had heard several reasons why the cost had risen so high, but that is not relevant here. The issue here is how I have no control over this, or any idea what the future will be.

Better Cars:
This may be a bit off topic, but I have a question for you to consider: why has pneumatic motors for cars been suppressed for nearly a century now when it beats the pants off hydrogen or eclectic cars? This is just pressurized air driven motors, which is not a new tech at all. They now make 5k PSI tanks with carbon fiber for better safety and lighter weight that can provide a 200 mile range per fill, has no pollution to speak of and no risk of a violent fiery explosion if in a serious collision. It would be far less hazardous land fill issues than old dead batteries, as well as a fraction of the weight for the energy source and motor. No expensive processing of the fuel, which can be set up at any fueling station for a fraction of the cost to recharge a tank in just a few minutes compared to hydrogen. Please write to your Congressman and tell them about this new/old tech to save our planet and society. Also, spread the word to as many people as you can to put pressure on The Man and force this out in the open.

Resources:
http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/06/the_worlds_first_airpowered_ca.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car
http://www.aircaraccess.com/catcomps.htm
http://www.carazoo.com/article/1210200902/Top-Five-Air-Powered-Vehicles

 Estimates

You won't need exact measurements. It should take you only 15 minutes to get rough measurements from the down on the ground with a common tape measure. As it states in the bottom left corner of the chart, you would only be charged for what materials stay on your house, so no one is cheated either way.

Click on the small images here to get a better look. There is also an example of an actual bid on the right to see how to fill it in.

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/BidChart.pdf

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/PriceSheet07.pdf

Warning:
I have heard many cases where other gutter contractors had claimed to have a lower price per foot than mine, but some how their bid still came in hundreds, and even thousands more.  The largest spread between my bid and another gutter contractor for copper gutters was $14,000. No joke. This shows how they make up for it by inflating the calculated measure of gutter parts needed for your house, so beware of shady Contractors.  This process should help save you from being taken by those unethical Salesmen. The local Leaf Guard Gutter franchise had submitted a bid for just aluminum parts to a client of mine (late 2006) that was over $1k above the cost of my bid for copper gutters with every advantage I offer (I have proof). Keep in mind that copper cost me over 6 times the cost of aluminum parts. I may have the last name (Rich), but who do you think is looking to get rich fast here?

(1) Rough measure of your horizontal roof lines that requires gutters and downspouts. No need for exact measurements, but it is best to make sure they are as much or more, so there are not added cost to worry about. Taking measurements from the ground with a measure wheel is all I do when doing an on-site quote. I loosely list downspout lengths rounding it off to the nearest even foot; like 8, 10, 12, 14.
(2) What type of metal you want me to use: aluminum or copper?
(3) If you just have rafter tails, or if you have fascia boards across the rafter tails for the gutter attachment?
(4) The type of roofing you have and the pitch of your roof for evaluation of difficulty?
(5) Which gutters are more than one story high?
(6) Make sure to add any digital pictures of your house, so I can see if there are any issues you may have missed or options to improve your gutter system I can recommend.  I have a cable modem, so file size is not an issue for me.

The more info you send, the more chance that I can give you an accurate ceiling cost for your project.  If I am a bit off, that's OK, since I always re-price the final cost to reflect only the material actually installed on your house.  This way no one looses.

You are welcome to arrange for a trip out to my home/shop to personally see demonstration of the gutter parts I use. We also have addresses of several houses on this web site that you can drive over to see closer to your area. Our address will be listed in our reply e-mail.

But if you're willing to do a little 'homework' yourself to assist me in this process that would be very helpful and rewarding for you as well with a 5% discount. This way I can shift that expense to more valuable avenues for my clients benefit to keep my quality standards up and costs down.

If you happen to live outside this Metro area; to date Corvalis and Wheeler on the Oregon Coast is the farthest I have gone for gutter work, but I could go further. Although I would need to charge for the extra mileage for bids outside my local area.  I am not licensed to work outside Oregon, so I do not do any quotes for Washington residence.

If I need to do an on-site quote; I will take measurements and usually write up a bid for your consideration there on the spot.  There is usually a pleasant surprise at the end of each job, since I only charge for what material lengths remain on your house.  Please e-mail me with house photos, address, contact info, and any other details you think is relevant to your needs, so I can service you with a bid and show you relevant samples.

If you feel you need to talk to me about your special needs you can always call my cell phone and speak with me personally at 503 351-7082, Although, I may be up on a ladder or driving, so I may not be able to talk for long or take notes.

 Deposit Required

When we've agreed on the terms of the contract I'll just need a 1/3 deposit to secure your spot in my schedule.

I had required 1/2 down to schedule new work in for over a decade, but after becoming booked this far out I realized this was not a reasonable amount, so I dropped it to just a third down. Then the next 1/3 is due at the time I show up to remove the gutters and get the exact measurements. That means I'm on your job until it's done at that point. Finally, the last *adjusted payment once the project is finished and your satisfied with the results.

I've had very few clients have issue with this policy, so I see not reason to change it. Your first 1/3 payment is buying this slot in my schedule of 1 to 4 weeks of my time, which pushes out the next clients. This way I know my clients are serious about having me work on their home. If I did not collect this deposit some clients may forget we had a contract, and wind up having the work done by some other Contractor who could get to it sooner.

* After I've finished I'll then have the final measurements of all the parts that remained on your house. I'll adjust the cost down accordingly. It will not be more than the bid I provided you, even if the measurements exceed the amount on that bid. Not unless the contract was changed or other work was added to complete your project; with your authorization of course.

For Small Jobs or Custom Copper Orders:
Full payment is required on small projects before I will begin fabrication, but for projects over $500 I'll accept 1/2 down to set your project into my schedule. Then the final payment once it's done, before shipment.  By then I will have provided you with plenty of digital photos of the progress, so you will see the project before shipment. For larger orders over $2k I'll only need 1/3 deposit. Then the next 1/3 payment when I've begun, and the final payment before it ships.

How Can We Trust You?
If you do not trust me, you should not do business with me at all. Simple as that. I would like to believe my reviews and my Business Integrity Award from the Better Business Bureau should give you plenty of confidence in my ethics and responsibility to my clients.  I have had less than 5% of my potential clients express discomfort with my deposit policy.  Largely since much of my work is from referrals, so they already know I can be trusted.

Is My Deposit Refundable?
A deposit refund has only been an issue in a couple cases in the last 2,300+ jobs over the last 17 years, but I am far to busy to try and hold you to a contract you do not want, so if for any reason you want or need to cancel the work contracted; before I have picked up the parts for your house, I will refund all but $100 reservation fee without question. I do not pick up the parts more than a week in advance of beginning a project and I normally contact the client before that to make sure we are still on the same page, so that will not be a surprise.

If I had already acquired those parts; only half the deposit is refundable, but I'll still honor your request.

 Do-it-yourself Gutter Parts Delivery:

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/DIYchart.pdf

Will you measure our house for us?
For the parts delivery service I offer, just like with any lumber yard delivery, this does not include a free evaluation of how much parts you will need. If you are not able to figure that out for yourself, you have no business attempting to install your own gutters. It is one qualifier that I insist on. The reason I have needed to make this my policy is because most all my potential client for just the parts have gotten horribly offended at the notion of me charging to get exact measurements for them and evaluate their needs, as well as providing my advice for improvements in their gutter system.

This chart will help you be able to chart your house for gutters and submit an order of all the parts you would need.  Print it out, fill it in and send it to me as a scanned digital image file through e-mail for corrections or adjustments. Or you can still snail-mail it to me and I will work it out. Digital photos of your house will also be very helpful if you don't mind some free advice.

 Emergency Service Questions:

I can do some emergency work day or night if you are willing to pay a $500 cash emergency service call charge to see what I can do to solve your immediate crisis, but that has rarely happened.  There is also a good chance that your problem may not be your gutters (see below).  You could have a defective storm-drain pipe, or the ground water table has risen above the floor of your basement.  Local building code does require gutters here in the NW only for the issue of long term ground erosion under foundations. Which is something that does not occur over the course of a couple years, but over a few decades, where serious damage would occur. So gutter replacement is rarely an emergency issue that can not wait several months.

Basement flooding?
If you have a basement that is flooding, this is a sign that you may have a much more serious problem to address than just gutters. Like:
(a) The water table in your area may be getting too high, and your basement should not have been permitted to be in the plans when the house was built. There are lots of areas around this metro area where the ground water table gets too high in the rainy seasons and basements are not within the code for that area.
(b) You may have clogged or damaged rain sewer pipes that are not able to carry the rain water safely away from you foundation?  Roto-Rooter type contractors are usually successful in clearing out these sort of clogs and using a camera to see if there is a damaged pipe.  You can test your underground pipes by running a full open garden hose into it for 5 to 10 minutes to see if it backs up.
(c) If you are on a hill side, or you just have a raised property on that side of your house, you may need a French drain installed around part of your foundation?

What if I need new gutters before I can sell our house?
If you have a signed contract with me to replace the gutters, that should satisfy any prospective buyer or those doing the paperwork for the sale, no matter how far booked out I am. Especially after you explain how I am well worth the wait.

What if I will be re-roofing soon?
If you will be needing a new roof in the near future it is best to install new gutters after such a major re-roofing project, since most roofers tend to be brutal to gutters.  My gutters are removable, but it is rare that roofing contractors will bother to remove your gutter before the damage is done.  If the roofer claims that he needs the gutters on for safety reasons, this is very alarming.  This indicates they will not be adhering to OCA safety regulation.  If they plan to grab onto the gutters incase they fall off, this mean they need to rethink their safety procedures much more carefully.  They should be working safe enough that this is not an issue.

What about working around our exterior painting project?
Where it comes to exterior painting, again new gutter should be installed afterwards, so they will not need to tape off the gutters and downspouts.  If there is one of the pre-painted color shown on my web site that would work well as a trim color, it will save you a good deal of trouble and cost to have me come early to remove the old gutters for the painters to work their magic.  Then when they are done, I will install the new gutters, but that may mean you are without gutters for a spell.  These pre-painted colors are a lot better than any paint they could put on them.  It is a baked on enamel finish.

What about the City asking to disconnect off our storm drain system?
If you are in an area where the City has encouraged people to disconnect their gutters from their storm drain system; you would do well to reconnect it as soon as possible.  This is one of the stupidest things City Officials have ever done.  You have building code enforcement requiring gutters, which are no good if you do not have a way to carry the rain water away from your foundation more than 10'.  You are better off without any gutters and have the rain dribble evenly along the roof edge, than to dump all that water in one spot out of your downspouts.  The City will not be accepting responsibility for the damage that will occur to your foundation.  Even if you have no basement, to jack up your house off the foundation and pour a new concrete foundation is a nightmare you never want to have to deal with. It will make your house nearly worthless if cracks are discovered by an inspector.  The City does not even give you a discount on your sewer bill for disconnecting.  Besides the problem of killing the plants and grass in that area from all that extra rain water, you have literally nothing to gain by disconnecting your downspouts.

Complicated custom work?
A nice couple out in Forest Grove had paid $23k to have their house paint stripped down.  Then another $13k to have it primed and given a 4 tone paint job.  They signed with me (8-04) for an $8k fascia rebuild and copper gutter job that also required a lot of special prep work before installing the copper gutters.  That project alone took me a good 4+ weeks to complete.  Go to my Kistler Gutter Job web page for more detail and photos.

They told me how they had been trying to get a bid on this gutter work for several years now, and had not found a single contractor willing to tackle their project.  They were thrilled to finally discover my web site, and see a contractor that had already done the kind of work they needed on my custom fascia web page.  As far as I know there is no other gutter contractors in this area who is able or willing to do this sort of complicated custom work.  Feel free to write me if you know differently and I will revise this statement.

 My Improvements Over the Last Decade

I am always looking to improve my installation and service to the highest available standards, at a reasonable cost.  If you have any new products or have ideas I may not have considered, feel free to contact me. Below is some examples of my never ending struggle to find the best possible tools, service, and products:

• I built a new workshop with better lighting with a separate woodworking shop (8/09)

• Moved back over to the West Side in Portland, Oregon from out near Estacada, so I am a lot closer in to most clients (7/09)

• I took on a trustworthy apprentice to assist me with my heavy work load. A young man I've known since he was a toddler, and shares my passion for ethics (6/09)

• Lowering the amount of the deposit required to schedule in new work from 1/2 down to only 1/3 initial payment (8/06)

• Larger #12 stainless steel  screws for gutter and downspout attachment w/#3 Phillips slot (6/06)

• A pneumatic rivet setter speeding up work (5/06)

• Better work vehicle (4/06)

• Impact drivers; substantially lowering the damage to the softer SS screws (3/06)

• Larger pipe cleats (4/05)

• More rivets to attach the pipe cleats on the back of the downspouts (1/05)

• #10 stainless steel screws for gutter and downspout attachment, from the steel screws I had been using (6/04)

• Two screws per hidden hanger for the gutter support: = 1 screw per foot, or 8x building code (4/04)

• Beginning our custom copper work for client across the country through copper-by-design.com(4/03)

• Longer Leaf-catchers and reducers using a 15" metal, instead of 12", and redesigned for less splattering outside the housing (4/03)

• More rivets used to seal the corners (2/03)

• 24 volt cordless chop saw for cutting downspouts, instead of a hack saw I had been using (8/02)

• The exclusive distributor of stronger wider hinged leaf screens  (4/02)

• Larger improved gutter machine trailer (4/01)

• Doing most of the prep work at our shop, instead of at the job site (9/00)

• Training my wife Tia in the art of gutter replacement (3/99)

Examples of my ideals and quality standards:
I finished a job in Milwaukie Oregon where I wrapped large 4x12 roof trusses with pre-painted aluminum sheet-metal that extended out about 2' past the roof and were getting quite weathered. I normally use much thicker .027 gage aluminum than used by most all siding contractors, who use a thin .019 or less for covering wood that is not covered by the vinyl siding. I found that I was no longer able to get the 4'x 10' sheets I had gotten in the past. Although they had some thicker .040 and .063 sheets left over from an over purchase a while back. For even less money while using the same .027 aluminum I could have covered these beams with a sheet of 12" wide gutter coil for one side and a 15" gutter coil to cover the other side and bottom, but I look to increase my standards when maintaining them is not an option, instead of lowering. That would have added a seam along the bottom that I had planned not to have.

Without asking the client for more money to cover this much more expensive metal, I gave her better quality than I originally bid. It was so thick I was not able to bend it with my equipment, so that cost me more as well to have it bent on stronger machinery. The client was very pleased with the results and told me several times how it looked better than she imagined it would.

I also have begun to mount downspouts with dome head stainless steel #3 Phillips screws, where most all other Installers will still use cheap steel nails that are hard to remove for unclogging the underground sewer pipes, or painting behind the downspouts.  The main reason these other contractors will not upgrade to screws is because it is cheaper to replace a lost or stolen hammer than it is to replace a $350 cordless drill (like I use), for their employees if they damage or steal it.

My focus has always been continuing to offering the best possible product and installation for a reasonable price (see my Ethics philosophy web page to read my thoughts on this issue).

 Clients Not Local to Portland Oregon

Non-local Client Orders
I service a lot of non-local client with custom copper fabrication, but I am not licensed to do any installation work outside Oregon, or to do any sort of roofing work. Within Oregon State and a suitable transportations fee added I can do gutter replacement outside our metro area: beyond the 20 mile radius shown on the Portland Oregon Thomas Guide. However, I do sell some unique gutter parts and custom copper sheet metal fabrication to clients across the continental USA (see my 'Shipping' web page for details).

I have been getting a lot of custom copper sheet metal fabrication orders from my web sites from clients across the Nation.  It seems there are not very many web site like these, who market custom copper sheet metal fabrication services on-line. This has begun to make up a good 75% of my work these days.  I have now made a whole new separate  non-local shipping web page to handle information for those type of orders.

Since many of these are simple projects that may only take a few hours to make; I could work on them in the evening in my workshop, and slip in between substantial projects I have, avoiding my normal wait time. Once I have all the details worked out; it may only take a week or two. Then what ever time it takes me to design, fabricate, and package it.  Full payment is required before I will work on it, and the check needs to clear before shipment.  I will provided you digital photos of the progress, so you will see the item before it ships.

Other Helpful Roofing Information
For some valuable advice with regards to roofing and rain management issues check out my:

(a) Gutter Installation
(b) Gutter Debris Protection Options
(c) Roofing Quality Standards
(d) Chimney Flashing
(e) Moss Control & Treatment

web pages for answers and solutions that could save you thousands of $ and a great deal of anguish.

If you do find this information very helpful, feel free to send us a $ tip for the assistance I so freely have published on the web here for your benefit, like you might tip a waitress.  Heck, send us a gift certificate for a candle lit dinner for two. <LOL>