Frequently Asked Questions about the History and Comparisons of Gutters Page #2 of 3

“ for the finest in rain management.”

Here are links to specific topics for residential rain-gutters
as researched and written by: David Rich since 1992 to now

Page #1

12. Steel -V- Aluminum?
13. Plastic Gutters?
14. Sturdy Installation
15. Snow Damage
16. Level or Graded Gutters?
17. Drip Edge Roof Flashing
18. Is it Continuous?
19. Corners for Gutters
20. Colors to Choose From?
21. Downspouts & Elbows
22. Leaf-Catchers?

We refuse to install steel gutters because it goes against out ethics.

Galvanized Steel
It is now very rare to see galvanized steel gutters any more, so that is more of a non-issue here.  We only see them sold to amateur installers at hardware stores in pre-shaped in 10' lengths.  They are a sub-code quality thickness and will not last nearly as long as professional grade steel gutters.

Painted Steel
All the gutter coils sold here are painted mild steel sheet-metal. I have not yet seen them sell a steel with a powder baked painted surface, so don't fall for that fairy tale. They have not changed the painting technology much in the last 30 years. We have seen some flashing made of Galv-alum, but have not seen this used for gutter coil.

(a) Strength: Their best arguments for steel is that steel is more rigid than aluminum.  This is very true, but this is neglecting to add that building code requires that all professional aluminum gutters are formed with sheet-metal that is almost twice as thick as professional steel gutters, to properly compensate for this short coming.  So it is about twice as thick and is not a metal that will rust.  as long as it is installed well, with moderate care and cleaning there should be little reason to need to replace them in the future.  Damaged gutters from some sort of impact only accounts for less than 10% of gutter replacement, so even if there was a noticeable difference, it is still a minor concern.  Steel gutters will not resist any substantial impact any better than aluminum.

The wholesale suppliers to professional gutter contractors do not sell steel sheet-metal coils in a thicker grade, since the rigidness of that thicker steel would only bog down in the roll forming machine they use to form the gutters on-site.  If they some how replaced the motor in that machine with a stronger one to handle this thicker metal, it would soon ruin the roller-bearings in that machine that are needed for the rollers to shape the metal into the gutter shape. That is why stainless steel gutters are rarely talked about or seen.  For this reason, the local wholesale suppliers do not stock stainless steel coils, so if your were to want stronger gutters, 20oz copper is pretty much your only option. Copper is a very malleable metal, but the 20oz copper does bog down our machine quite a bit. It just barely is able to push it through.

It is a bold-face lie!

(b) Looks: Their second best claim is that "you will want to replace your filthy gutters after 15 or so years anyway.  For nice shiny new ones that are the latest fashion and color!  So rusting gutters is a non-issue" This may be true for some people. How do you feel about that statement though? Rusting gutters accounts for the majority of our gutter replacement by far. It is the main cause of at least 80% of all gutter replacements. If that does not tell you the good and bad of gutters, what could? The way we see the looks of steel is the permanent rust stains on the surfaces below it. Even when the rust steel is replaced, the stain damage remains.

(c) Longevity: Steel gutters will rust through it 10 to 20 years, depending on how clean they are kept, and most homeowners do not keep their gutters well maintained.  Plenty of them were because of poor installation.  We have replaced several very expensive custom steel gutter systems on businesses and churches that were over 4 times as thick as standard steel gutters.  But even these gutters had rusted completely through the bottom within three decades.  We removed leaking gutters that were so thick they had to be welded together.  They were on a Stuart Anderson Cattle Co. Restaurant that could not have been more than 30 years old, but they still failed.  One thing we do know that rusty steel gutter replacements account for a good 80% of our work.  Many of which were less than 10 years old.

(d) Expansion and Contraction: Proponents of steel will say how aluminum will expand and contract far more than steel.  steel being a much more stable metal.  It is true there does seem to be a slight difference between these two metals. We are talking millimeters per 10' length. That statement is assuming a wood structure will not shift and change too. You need to garner cautionary claim with the obvious motivations of the salesperson.

Perhaps if you are needing gutters for a steel pole building, just maybe steel gutters would expand at a similar rate, but the thickness of the steel of the pole barn structure will affect this as well, so they are not likely to expand the same as thin steel gutters. It is more how they are installed that will make a difference as to potential problems.  It is advised to not install aluminum or steel gutters longer than 40' to 50'.  Especially if the ends of the gutters are attached to another gutter at a corner.  You cannot make a seamless corner, so the change in temperature can cause the metal length to change and it can only push or tug on those corners; pulling them apart. Long gutters need an expansion joint in the middle to relieve this tension.

In an extreme case we have seen where a gutter contractor installed a pair of gutters that were 150' each, overlapping to connect them in a 300' long straight side of that commercial building.  That other gutter contractor would have made it in one piece, but they did not have the manpower to install that long of a gutter.  The seam not only pulled apart and leaked. It ripped one gutter off the building, and the other would have followed in time. There were 5 downspouts on that side of the building, so we were able to break it up into 5 separate gutters of around 60' each. That was still longer than we should have done, but we had little choice. We then capped over the two endcaps that were near each other, so it would not dribble between them. We also placed a short piece of gutter up under this expansion joint to visually hide the gap.  Another alternative we could have done is to design the ends of the gutters to be at the downspouts to dump into a scupper mounted on the siding. I then could have broken them up into 4 long gutters and two shorter ones on the ends.  If there is not enough downspouts to do this, there is a rubber expansion joint as well that can be purchased.  They are hidden inside the ends of two overlapping gutters.

(e) Leveling: Most steel gutters will last about 15 years.  Maybe more if they are kept very clean and were leveled properly when they were installed (which is very rare to find), so that there is no standing water in them.  The main problem with this is that from what we have seen from the removal of over a couple thousand sets of gutters, most installers do not even use a level to compensate for such irregularities on a house (which we do see on most every house), so few steel gutters will last very long.

Even new houses are not built properly level.  With all our gutter installations, we actually add a slight grade towards the outlets, so there is not only little chance that there can be any standing water.  Even after the gutter gets dirty, they are more apt to rinse themselves out in a heavy down pour.  The only time we would not install gutters with this downward grade is if the home owner insists we do not.  We would caution them again about the benefits of a healthy grade, but must leave the final decision up to the home owner.  Luckily, this is rarely an issue.

There is no real advantage to steel, other than the cost. With labor being the majority of the cost, the cost difference is clearly not worth the disadvantages of steel gutters. You will do well to not hire any gutter contractor who pushes steel, and to find a contractor that will install rust-free gutters correctly.

Aluminum
Manufacturers typically claim a 20 year warranty on the paint finish, and aluminum sports a 40 year to life-time warranty on it's failure, depending on their moxy.  Aluminum has been used in making gutters for over 40 years now and we have yet to find aluminum gutters that had rotted through the bottom.  The only reason that we have had to replace aluminum gutters is because of poor installation, or because of damage from fallen tree branches or a trucks being backed into them.  Although dents are more the rarity.  And keep in mind that steel gutters really do dent just as easily.  Remember, steel may be strong, but a much thinner sheet-metal (see (a) above).

Stainless Steel
Stainless steel is stronger than steel, but because of that, it is even a little thinner than the regular steel sheet metal, so there blows that advantage.  It is also rather odd looking on a house, since it remains that shiny silver.  We have seen roof valley on the Mormon churches we have worked on that are stainless steel, and they remain a bright eye sore.  They should have used copper, since it is about the same cost and is a metal that is meant to be seen.

Copper
Since stainless steel is about the same cost as copper, it is rarely sold, hence the wholesale suppliers do not carry a stock of stainless steel.  Why would you want gutters that would remain bright and shinny like stainless steel, when for the same cost, you can have solid copper gutters?

Copper gutters are a good way to go, if you are willing to pay a good 2 to 4 times the cost for gutters from what aluminum would cost you.  We try not to push copper gutters for this reason. It is not like they will last longer than aluminum gutters.  The one practical advantage is that you will have no need to deal with the painting or even cleaning issue again, since they will not mildew.  But that is not the main reason that home owners buy copper gutters. It is more for the bragging points.  It is the posh thing to have, and practicality often has less to do with it.

We refuse to install steel gutters, for we do not believe in planned obsolescence!  It would go against our ethics.  That is one point we will not concede.

We have replace lots of plastic gutters, and here are some of the logical reasons why they are simply a waste of money:

(a) Plastic gutters are even worse than steel gutters.  They may not rust, but the sun will break down the plastic within a decade and they become very brittle.  Depending on how clean you keep your gutters, steel gutters will last about 15 to 20 years at least.  

(b) Even when the plastic gutters are new, they do not have the support to lean a ladder against them to clean them out or access the roof.  Don't try to lean a ladder against them, or they will collapse and or crack, depending on how old they are.

(c) The rubber seals that join plastic gutters at every 10 foot section are made of a cheap rubber and they seem to fail in even less time than the gutters.

(d) The exterior supports are unsightly. Do you want to look at your house and see it look to have obvious exterior plumbing on it?

(e) Plastic gutters are not recyclable, which means we have to pay an extra dump fee to get rid of them.  There for adding to our land fill problem.  We also have to charge more for removal to cover the disposal cost.

(f) The connecting parts are so expensive, it can cost almost as much as hiring us to install aluminum gutters.

(g) We refuse to install plastic gutters, for we do not believe in planned obsolescence!  It would go against our personal ethics.

(h) Most of the plastic gutters you see are just amateur parts bought from the local hardware store by do-it-yourselfers, and are poorly installed.

There is no good application for Plastic gutters!  Enough said?

Fashions need to change over time.  Back in the early 70's they came out with the plain face fascia type gutter look to give a more modern appearance to these simple houses.  It took time to transition over to these from the previous standard K-5 gutter, but over the last few decades it had come to be the standard for over 90% of the new construction through the 80's and 90's.

The real reason general contractor switched over was the money they saved:
1. They had reverted to installing cheap steel gutters instead of aluminum, since the CCB only requires a one year warranty.
2. These gutter machines were cheaper with a much simpler set of rollers to form these fascia gutters with fewer bends to it.
3. This taller profile allowed the general contractor to save by not installing any fascia boards on the rafter tails.
4. They also saved money by having this gutter machine bend a small 1/2" lip on the back side; that is to go over the plywood edge.  This way the roofers did not have to install the standard 1"x 3" dripedge flashing at the roof edge any more.
5. This lip over the plywood roof edge also eliminated the need to use a level when installing gutters, since there was no choice to do anything other than install the gutters straight with the roof edge.  This sped up the installation process, again saving a lot of money.
6. They also gifted you with a more modern look by not purchasing the curved downspout elbows any more.  They just cut the straight downspout pipe with a hacksaw and folded it.  This works well if you have a debris free situation, but tends to cause an annoying dripping noise inside these tin downspout pipes.  I have even seen them do this on a copper set of gutters on a Street of Dreams house in 2003, if you can believe that?

In this new century, fascia gutters are getting real old after the last 30 or so years of dominance.  Not to mention they simply do not work well.  I see the trend reversing to the previous k-5 style wood molding shaped gutter.

This is because there is no other good option to go with:
(a) The Leaf Guard ® gutters and other similar types only work in debris free situations (see our Comparison Web Page for details).  also they are far too expensive, since they cost as much as expensive copper gutters.  General contractors work to keep housing prices down and maximize their profits, so they are far too cheap to ever go that route.  That is why you never see copper gutters on a new house, unless it was specifically ordered that way by the buyer and are willing to pay through the nose for them.
(b) Even though the older half round gutters are cheap, since they take less sheet metal to make a 5" gutter, they were made from one of the very first continuous gutter machines, before they developed more complex gutter machines, and were obsolete about half a century ago.  They are a terrible way to go, since they are too shallow, very hard to level, do not have the strength to resist the pressure of a ladder against them, and look worse than plastic gutters; in that they look even more like your house was fitted with external plumbing pipes.  Because these half-round gutters are crap and ugly, there are very few gutter contractors in the USA who still have a half-round gutter machine, so they could never keep up with the demand of new construction.
(c) See just above for the reasons the plastic gutters are utter garbage.

I do not know of any other viable options out there.  There is a push to make houses with a more classic styling as well, so that is why the K-5 wood molding shape is coming back in style.  Even when they were making the older half-round gutters, the K-5 gutter would have been what looks better on those houses to match the existing wood molding, but they simply did not have that option back then.  Gutters should be as inconspicuous as possible.

What is a right way to install gutters?

(a) Each time the gutters are replaced, it tears up and weakens the wood that the gutters are attached to, so I gave up installing gutters with nail spikes over 10 years ago.  In fact, I only used them once.  I realized right off the bat how terrible they were.  So I researched for a better method.  I use an extra strength hidden hanger, with hex head galvanized wood screws that I order from a supplier back East, since the supply and demand is such that the local suppliers have do not have the incentive to stock the better parts that are available.

(b) I place these hidden hangers every two feet, which is twice that of building code.  Placing them every 2 feet is especially helpful when you lean a ladder on them to clean out your gutters, or when someone needs to work on your roof.  It is far less likely to dent and cave in.  These brackets are more common where they have severe ice storms, and they have whole sheets of ice would slide off the roof and just slam the gutters off the house.  They also leave a much smoother appearance, like the wood molding they are to resemble.

(c) We all know how screws hold a lot better than nails.  In the old days they did not have a steel molding process to mold screws, so they had to be turned on a lathe from a solid stock of steel.  Nails were the only thing that was affordable.  These days we do have inexpensive screws.  They do still cost more than nails of course, but they would only add a tiny amount to the whole contract cost.  the best part about screws is that if the wood I am attaching to splits and cracks, or there is too much dry-rot, or even if the screw strips out the wood it is suppose to grip to, I will always know it.  The screw will not cinch down tight and I will not feel the drill kick back.  It will just continue to spin.  I then can back out the screw, change the angle, move the bracket, or change to a longer screw.  I know if it takes every single time.  Nails will not be able to give the installer that kind of indication.

(d) It is a fact that most installers in the NW are still using nails in these modern days, since all they care about is the bottom line. It is simply because the gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and replace a powerful $300 18v Makita cordless impact driver like I use.  Also a lot cheaper to replace when they get lost or stolen.

(e) When we are installing a 55 foot long gutter on a house, the hidden hangers are all in place with the screws started in the back, which stabilizes the gutter a great deal.  It only takes one person to install it.  It may be bowing a bit, I set the center screw, I cannot see quite how the end fits to the edge of the roof.  I go to the end of the gutter and measure how far I need to reset that center screw, then I go back to the middle and reset that screw.  I go to that end that is away from the outlet and pull it up as high to the roof as possible and set that screw.  I then work the level, giving it a slight grade down towards the outlet and set the screws as I work my way to the center.  Most times the center screw is not set to the right height, so I then reset it again.  I then work my way to the other end.  You cannot do that with nails.  Enough said?

Back in 1994, I was removing one short 16' gutter, without bothering to cleaning the leafy debris first, not guessing that the Mt. St Hellens ash was still in the gutter under the leaves since that 1981 blast. When I removed the last nail spike, the weight of that gutter was so much that it dropped out of my hand and dented the metal shed under the gutter. We had not seen that sort of trouble since Mt. St. Hellens first blew and the weight of the ash the washed down off the roofs pulled a lot of gutters off houses well before I began to do construction work. This issue had been the main motivator for my doubling up on gutter support brackets and using only screws to install gutter, since I began doing professional gutter installations over a decade ago.

This snow damage issue had not been much of a problem here in the Portland Metro area, since we normally do not get those sort of weather conditions here. But in the Winter of 2003/04 we did get a serious weather condition that did damage a lot of gutters. This was especially a large problem with metal roofs, where the house would warm up the snow from underneath and the snow would slide off, even on low slope 4/12 pitch roofs. Even with a few of the gutter installations we did, that snow broke off the screw heads the held the gutters up. Believe it or not, the aluminum gutters and brackets held up, but we saw that we needed to prepare better for the future and compensate for this sort of natural disaster.

We began in early 2004 to change over to stainless steel screws and to double up on each hidden hanger bracket. So it equals one screw per foot of gutter, which is 4 times the building code for gutters.

We wrote up a whole web page devoted to this issue, s click on the photo above to read more and see other photos.

In talking with home owners and from replacing several thousands of sets of gutters, I’ve found that few installers even bother to use a level when installing gutters.  They just install them straight with the roof edge, in hopes that the structure is not so out of level that the top of the gutter opposite the outlet is not lower than the bottom of the gutter at the outlet.  It is true that it does not take much debris in the gutter to upset this balance and cause the gutters to over flow at the low point, but even beyond the fact they are only required to provide a one year warranty, the gutter contractors can simply claim no responsibility to keep your gutters clean.  Fascia gutters are even deeper, making the margin for error even harder to detect.

Most fascia gutter contractors set their machine to bend the backside of the gutter to lay over the roof's edge.  Although this installation does not allow the option to level or grade the gutters down toward the outlet, so that it would rinse themselves out in a heavy downpour.  I have yet to work on a house that is properly level, let alone was built intentionally sloped to drain toward the outlets.  It’s not unusual where I have had to drop the gutter down 2" or more at the outlet, just to level the gutter.

If I work to give the gutters a slight grade down to the outlet, they not only will better be self cleaning, there is much less chance there will be any standing water in the gutter to possibly cause problems in the future, so they will likely last far more than a year.  They also will not be breeding ground for mosquitoes and smelly bacteria from the decaying debris.  That is why cleaning gutter gunk smells like S - H - I - T.  I sure hope you use gloves when cleaning out your gutters!

A proper drip-edge roof flashing is suppose to be installed across the roofs bottom edge by the roofer before the shingles are nailed on.  It is to reach up 3" under the edge of the shingles, and hang down an inch into the gutter.

A far cry different from the small half an inch lip on those cheap steel fascia gutters, compared to the drip-edge's 3" reach.  One of this flashings primary functions is to keep the rain water from soaking up under the roofing shingles and causing dry-rot of the plywood roof.

The secondary function is to seal the gap from the roofing shingles to the gutter, so the rain water does not dribble behind the gutter.  that would also cause dry-rot to the wood that the gutter is attached to. Causing gutters to come loose, and even fall down.  Most home owners are familiar with seeing those large nail spikes that hold the gutters on, coming loose and sticking out.  You can have them hammered back in, but the damage is done, so they will not hold tight again.

The sad thing is that with most re-roofing, there is no requirement to file for a building permit, so there is no inspector called to make sure that your house is being serviced correctly.  There is so much need for re-roofing in this area that it would overwhelm the building permit office.  They use the excuse that re-roofing is not changing the structure, so they let this type of construction slip.

People often ask if I install continuous gutters?  The truth is; there are no truly continuous gutters.  You will at least have the end-caps that will be a possible leak problem, not to mention any corners your house may need.  But this is what a portable gutter machine is all about; to transform a long flat coil of sheet metal into the shape of a gutter, up to one thousand feet long in aluminum.

One needs keep in mind that metal expands and contracts differently than the wood structure of your house.  Gutters should never be installed in a continuous length over 45 to 50 feet, or it has a tendency to rip it’s self loose from the building.  If there is any corners, this expansion and contraction has no other option than to rip the corners open.  There is a reason they make rubberized expansion joints for this purpose for.

If there is enough outlets, I often split long gutters up, placing two opposing endcaps about 1/2" apart. I then cap over the two endcaps, so it will not dribble between them.  I then make a short piece of gutter to cover those endcaps from underneath.  this has an additional benefit, making the gutters more modular.  If a large tree branch falls and dents the gutter, or a moving van backs up and crushes the gutter, there is only half the gutter to replace.

What about sealing the corners?

Besides the fact that steel is so much cheaper, installers like fascia gutters, since the corners are so much easier to miter.  Also there is less need to buy endcaps when it is so easy to just fold the back side over and form a simple endcap.

How you seal a corner makes all the difference.  In the old days all they had was solder to seal gutters, since they did not have the good caulks we have these days.  It worked plenty well, but it was dangerous to have an open flame torch so close to the roof edge, and solder was not something that could be used on aluminum sheet metal gutters.  

That is why we went to Pacific Putty to get the best caulk they sell.  It cost us over twice as much as the priciest caulk sold at the local wholesale gutter parts suppliers, but that is a minor concern for us.  It is a sad fact that we are still the only gutter contractor in the area to buy this better caulk.  We even use this caulk and copper rivets on the copper gutters we install, instead of soldering the seams together.

Some amateur installers will buy the factory-made corner pieces for the K-5 style gutters, but the better installers will miter their own corners, so that there is only one potential leak, instead of three seams.  If you see this, it is very telling of the installer's competence, and there are most likely many issues that are lacking.

The pre-painted aluminum comes in 30 different pre-painted colors (see the Colors web page to see the list).  they are a baked on enamel finish, like a car finish, that is better and smoother than any paint you can put on them, like house paint.  Even the touch-up spray paints sold at the same wholesale gutter parts suppliers are noticeably inferior to the original baked on finish the parts come in.

Can they be pained later?

They have not changed the painting technology much in the last few decades, but there is only one 'color' that comes in a special lightly textured coat, that is said to be more scratch and stain resistant.  It only comes in white.  I do stock gutter coil and all the downspout parts in this painted aluminum.  I also recently found out that I can order the 2"x 3" downspout pipes in a thicker grade of aluminum for twice the cost to us.  I offer this at no additional cost to my clients.  I do not mean to compel you to choose only this white gutter parts that I stock, but I thought it only fare to inform you of this advantage.

What if your colors do not match my trim paint?

Most of the other colors are earth tones.  If you can find a good color match, or a color you like, you would do well to get your gutters in that color, and maybe re-paint the rest of your trim to match, if needed.  Most all other installers will charge you extra for these other colors, than white or dark brown that hey would stock.  they have done this so much now that they have trained home owners to the point that white gutters account for about 70% of what is being installed.  It is of course simple to just draw from their large stock of white parts they can buy in volume.

Like I said above, I do stock only white parts, since I get so much call for it, but I do get tired of doing white so often, and it shows mildew very badly.  I feel that it ought to be a matter of customer service to provide the right color suited for your house.  It is true that it does cost us more to provide other colors and have to make these small purchases for one job.  It is a major hassle to spend an extra part of my day getting those other colored parts, not to mention having to spray paint the corners and the other specialty downspout elbow parts I use (especially on a rainy days).  But I would rather it look right, like it was meant to be on your house, and you feel good about my work when I am done.  It is much better for my referral business as well.

I stock 3 times as many types of downspout elbows as other installers, to give your house a more customized fit.  But these specialty parts don’t come in all those other colors.  I stock them in white and have to use the touch-up spray paint to get them to match. Of course with copper parts this is simply not an issue.

In fact, when they put up fascia gutters, they don’t use any elbows at all.  They just cut into the side of the strait downspouts with a hacksaw and fold it.  This cheap method is notorious for getting debris clogged in the downspouts. The fascia gutter bottoms are so narrow, they are also unable to utilize the oversized downspouts we offer for a no-clog gutter. We have even seen recent Street of Dreams homes with copper gutters that had the same sort of plain square downspouts and did not have any curved elbows? That was insane!

The smooth rectangular steel downspouts they use are even smaller than the standard corrugated aluminum down spouts that I use.  I can fit those downspout inside the ones I use.  I also attach the downspouts with a thick bracket that I rivet on the backside, and anchored with special coated Phillips screws for easy removal. This way you can paint behind it, or access the underground drain if needed.

I have seen a lot of downspouts detach from the bottom of the gutter, so I install the first elbow onto the bottom of the gutter with caulk and rivets before I install the gutter. I then double rivet each elbow attachment together, except the one elbow already on the gutter, so the downspout can be removed if needed without damaging those downspouts.

You can read more about this topic on my Downspout Comparison web page:
http://dmr-gutters.com/ds.htm

Below is a photo of our
Better Business Bureau's
NW Business Integrity Award
for the year 1998

We were also a 1997 finalist for this same award. See our referral web page to see how we managed to be honored with this special award