My K-5 Style Rain-Gutter and Downspout Quality Standards Page

Use the information on this web page to help interview other gutter contractors, especially if you are not local to the Portland Oregon area. Here is a Word doc file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.doc

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 For a good honest free resource to find reliable contractors
 in your area that your neighbors have used and reviewed

Introduction

DMR's Work Standards for Gutters
The list below explains the details about the 31 clearly important advantages over the local competition for just basic gutter and downspout installations.  These do not even including description of the 'No-clog option' advantages.  For a comparison of leaf debris protection for gutters with the different concepts and a list of advantages go to my No-clog Comparison web page, which is much more than just a check list.

To the right is a copy of the cover sheet I have as part of my presentation folder that I give each client when providing them a bid.  In this presentation folder I also provide a list of my current prices, a copy of the Better Business Bureau's NW Business Integrity Award for the year 1997/98, 10 page FAQ, consumer protection information required by the CCB with another consumer protection pamphlet they wrote, a pre-stamped postcard addressed to the Better Business Bureau for written comments of my work or even sales presentation, and of course the detailed bid with a selection of color options for the pre-painted aluminum gutter parts.

I also supply a physical sample of the gutters I install with a Monster Hidden Hanger screwed in place and a sample of the hinged screen I use.  If the client is present at the time of the bid I also demonstrate a physical samples of the Leaf-catcher I make.

You can click on each picture on this web page to get a better detailed look or link to pages with more detailed information.

1. Installation Experience and Ethics:
Doing business as DMR I have been local to the Portland Oregon area since 1985.  I have no employees, so your new gutter parts are installed by a seasoned professional who is the owners of DMR Gutters, who has a vested interest in my company's reputation, that no employee would possess. Not installed by people you never got a chance to meet before hand.

I, David Rich have been working in forms of paid construction work since 1980, and was tested in school to have a 99% mechanical aptitude, with a high skill in spatial arrangement, and an artistic back ground.

The first paid gig for wood working I got was for a large human skeletal and muscular structure for the life-size Darth Vader I designed and made for the promotions of the Star Wars sequel 'Empire Strikes Back' in 1980 in Salt Lake City Utah.

I have specialized in sheet metal gutter custom fabrication and installation since 1992.  In most cases I redesign the replacements to improve the drainage from what was there before.

Tia Rich is not only an attractive female, but she decided to set aside her career in Nursing and Social Work to join David in this line of work full time for a few years, so she understands this work from all angles as well. Tia is also very artistic and has a positive influences on this presentation and the gutter work.  She still loves being active in this business, but she has built up her business as a metaphysical healer/counselor, hypno-therapist, Doula Birth Support, and is getting her degree in Midwifery.  Getting her hands covered with spray paint, caulk, and cuts from working with the sheet-metal would not be good for her line of work, so she does not physically work with David much these days, but is often found with him writing up bids.  Her web site for that work is: http://inner-serenity.org.

Other than coffee and tea, I don't use artificial stimulants, always working sober.  I have written web pages on the philosophy of good ethics in business and one's personal life to express my feelings on ethical responsibility.  You can read more about my background on my Company History web page and Biography web page.

2. Honest Bidding:
All Contractors are required by the CCB in State of Oregon to provide potential clients with a free realistic bid, so you as the Homeowner can feel free to get several quotes to receive enough information and competitive prices to be able to make the best possible choice of whom to hire.

I would like to believe I am well worth the wait, but I am often booked out half a year in advance. I encourage you to get several bids to appreciate the advantages that I offer.  I do not claim to be the cheapest per foot out there, but for what you get with my service, I feel you will be hard pressed to find a better bargain. Use the information on this web page to help interview other gutter contractors. Here is a Word doc file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.doc

Without these advantages offered I have heard how other gutter contractor's sales teams have claimed to sell their gutters for a lower price per foot, but for some reason their bids have been hundreds more than mine?  I suppose that is very telling of what to expect of such dishonest salesperson, that they would falsify measurements, so they can claim a lower price per foot and still make more money than I.

If you are just doing research for a future date, or are a bit nervous about getting a bid from me, you can go to my Latest News page to see how easy it is to write-up an estimate for yourself.  This will give you a good idea of what costs to expect. More importantly it will help keep you from getting robbed by another gutter contractor with inflated measurements.  You can also have me try to work-up a no pressure bid through e-mail with your measurements and a few digital photos.

You can read more about my thoughts on Ethical Responsibility.

3. A More Detailed Bid and Presentation: 
The image below shows the detailed 2 part carbonless paper copy bid chart I personally designed in Adobe Pagemaker.  It will have all the measurements and a concise break-down of what parts are needed to do your job, as seen on the right example.  No BS here.  It comes with my standard presentation folder which consists of a 3 ring binder that has 21 other printed sheets of information.

Click above to look over my custom gutter bid chart in more detail.
You can also print it out to fill in, so other gutter contractors cannot take advantage of you with inflated measurements.

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/BidChart.pdf

My bids are free to you (as long as you are local to us), even thought beside the cost of gasoline my standard presentation folder and materials cost us about $10 each.  Not to mention the cost of this comprehensive web site, which I have personally invested thousands of hours to create and maintain.  This shows how a good presentation and sharing of important information is very important to me.

4. Most Detailed Web Site
I do not mean to brag here, but I do clearly seem to have the most comprehensive web site on rain management in the world.  I challenge you to find a gutter contractor's web site that is even 1/4th as comprehensive as this.  I have spent thousands of hours personally creating and updating this informative web site over the last decade with over 200 web pages and over 2,000 clear digital photographs to demonstrate what I am talking about here.  Images that enlarge to full screen digital images to get a better look if you choose.

5. Environmental Protection:
Saving Fuel
I use a more fuel efficient work vehicle than a conventional truck.  I transport my gutter machine on a separate trailer, to reduce fuel wasted, since well over 90% of my driving does not require a gutter machine.  Savings to you, and better for ecology.

Construction Debris
When possible, I do most of the fabrication work at my shop.  Thus reducing the number of trip to the job site, and better control over noise pollution, visual pollution, and construction debris at your house.  The installation goes pretty quick, once the gutters are fabricated and ready to install.

Pollution
I also do not leave construction debris at the job site.  Even the small rivet ends and sheet metal scrap cut-off gets saved and recycled along with the old gutters.  You would be hard pressed to find one small scrap left on the ground, other than maybe some tiny saw shavings.

As to noise pollution: I have yet to discover a quiet saw to cut downspouts with, but my 24v Bosch cordless miter chop saw does cut downspout to length at least 10 times faster than a hack saws used by those other gutter contractors employees.  This help to minimizing the time of that shrill noise.  Another reason I refuse to install steel gutter parts, since this saw cannot be used on steel, because it would break the carbide teeth off the saw blade. My impact drill for running screws in is a bit loud, but I do not imagine it is louder than hammering in those 7" nail spikes still used to hang most gutters.

6. The Type of Gutters I Install:
I only have 1 gutter profile option. That seems limited, but this is the best gutter profile made. Let me explain: I have had very little request for the larger more expensive K-6 gutter, and I will not install an inferior gutter due to my rigid quality standards.  It is a wrestle to balance function and aesthetics together, but there are some major problems with all the other gutter profiles.

I turned down the largest copper gutter bid I had ever done in late 2003, worth over $20k.  All because the owners insisted on half-round gutters w/the round downspouts.  I was going through their general contractor, so I was not able to speak with the owners to explain this issue.  My FAQ web page goes into detail about why these and other gutter profiles are very dysfunctional, and even look horrid on a house. Once you better understand the history and development of gutters throughout the last century it will make more sense.  It explains why the K-5 design came about in the first place. 

Fascia gutters are very commonly seen on houses built within the last 3 decades, but when I have been contracted to replace these gutters on several houses less than 5 years old, this should tell you something about how poorly they work to manage the rain run-off.  Continuous aluminum gutters used to be the standard several decades ago.  It was used in most all the adds as the new buzz words, and home owners began to expected all metal gutters to be aluminum.  New-housing construction companies had gradually reverted away from aluminum gutters to cut costs, reverting back to installing cheap steel gutters, since it is not required by the building code here.  All they are required to offer is material that will hold up to a one year warranty!

My K-5 style rain-gutter roll-forming machine produces a gutter that has numerous advantages over all the other gutter profiles, ie: a wider bottom, which lets the debris travel sideways easier, and allows for the larger outlet option, which can reduce the most common area of rain-gutter clogging. (see 'faq' section for more details).  There is no need for more options when you have the best profile at a reasonable cost.  This style is also making a come back in housing fashions, since the fascia gutters has been predominately used for new construction in the larger cities since the 70's.  Housing architecture is going away from the plain boxy look, and more towards a classic ornate styling; with wrap-around porches and 8 sided turrets.  This wood molding shape is a good accent to this look.

The most important problem is not the shape of the gutter, but what the gutter is made of.  Around 40 years ago aluminum was the catch-word used to sell gutters and siding, once aluminum became available and cost efficient.  Most all gutter contractors had switched over from using steel to using aluminum in order to stay competitive.  But when it came to the point that I expected gutters to all be made of aluminum, it stopped being the phrase to identify the better gutter contractors.  These gutter companies stopped using that catch-word in their advertising, and gradually switched back over to using steel again, since it is sooo much cheaper.  I would see more cars made of aluminum if the number crunchers did not see the long term financial benefit to sticking with steel for car frames and body panels. In a word; planned obsolescence.  It would not change the cost of a car more than 10% to be made of a metal that will not rust. The Acura sports car shown here demonstrates I do have the technology to do it right.  Even the suspension parts are engineered in aluminum alloy.  It would be great to see aluminum used more, so there is much less wasted labor and materials, not to mention the greater landfill problem, since many rusty steel and plastic gutters are not recycled (plastic gutters will not last even as long as steel gutters).

If called on it, those gutter contractors will claim they use only steel for your benefit.  They will try to convince you steel gutters are much stronger than aluminum.  This is a lie and they know it.  Beside the fact that damaged gutters accounts for less than 10% of gutter replacements compared to the replacement of rusted out steel gutters, the steel being used for gutters is much thinner.  These contractors cannot get steel that is as thick as the aluminum used for gutters.  Even if they could, it would destroy the bearings in their roll-forming gutter machine, and bog it down, burning out the motor.

Before they ever came out with aluminum gutters, building code officials required a much thicker aluminum sheet metal, to compensate for this issue of aluminum being a softer metal.  A very high grade of aluminum alloy sheet metal is used for gutters.  For example; the recycle value of that aluminum used for rain gutters is better than most other grades of aluminum.

7. A Higher Quality Gutter Machine:
I spent an extra $1,500 on my machine for the extra rack of rollers to bend a safety hem on the back side of the gutter to help keep it stronger and straighter to the roof edge.  It also provides an open hem to push the no-clip hidden hanger up into the back of the gutter, again keeping the gap to the roof line as minimal as possible.

It may not be uncommon to have a portable rain-gutter roll forming machine used to run out custom continuous lengths of seamless sheet-metal gutters (pictured here), but few have their machine on a covered trailer, so it is not a rust bucket, like most roll-forming gutter machines you will see on the road (see below).

8. A Well Protected Gutter Machine:
Most gutter contractors leave their gutter machine exposed to the elements on the back of their truck or on an uncovered trailer.  The manufacturers of roll forming gutter machines may install a few stainless steel rollers, but they do not make these machines with stainless steel bearings.  They are not even galvanized steel.  They have no protective coating to resist rust.  Many of the rollers are just raw mild steel as well.  Many of the bearing races are in direct contact with the pre-painted gutter material, so pretty much all other gutter machines out there are riddled with rusty rollers and bearings, which will scratch the paint and even dent the new rain-gutters. Within half a decade those gutter machines are only worth about $100 a ton, since that is the scrap value of steel.

I have one of the few gutter roll-forming machines that has been kept out of the elements since it was new.  I have already had to replace about a dozen bearings in it due to rust just from condensation.  I also keep my machine free of gutter coil when not in use, as recommended by the manufacturer.  This avoids dust and debris build-up from settling in the partially formed gutter, which can cause dents in the gutter, and cause rust to develop on those rollers.

Honestly, this is a serious issue.  When getting bids, ask them to show you what condition their gutter machine is in.  As an example I had to rent a K-6 gutter machine once for a large copper gutter job.  That machine was only a couple years old, but the guillotine was rusted solid and would not work.  It took me several hours to free it up with WD-40 and hammers.  Then I tried to just rotate the spool holding the copper coil, but the bolt to loosen the lock was so seized up it broke off instead of turning.  That bolt must not have been even galvanized. Luckily I was making copper gutters and did not need to worry about scratching up the paint surface, but I was not happy with the results.

You can see and read about the design and fabrication of the trailer shell I made to cover my gutter machine and keep it as dry as possible on my 5 Gutter Machine web pages.

9. Rust Free Gutters:
I install only rust free sheet metal gutters in Aluminum and Copper, with rust free support brackets and stainless steel screws on each gutter job.  As far as I know, I am the only gutter contractor in this area who even offer this as an option.  I have been told by the wholesale gutter suppliers that I am the only contractor to consistently buy the better parts.

N As stated above in section #6; after aluminum sheet metal had become cost efficient and became the standard in the industry, primarily because of the use of catch-words like aluminum in advertising.  So most of the gutter contractors in this area had converted over to aluminum gutter parts.  But in more recent decades they have reverted back to using painted steel sheet-metal that is not even galvanized.  It is cheaper and the CCB only requires a 1 year warranty on any construction preformed buy licensed contractors.

If called on it, they will try to BS you; claiming that steel gutters are stronger than aluminum, but this is a lie, and they know it.  When they first developed the aluminum gutters, the code enforcement officials were not stupid.  They knew aluminum is a softer metal, so they required that for gutters it had to be about twice as think, to compensate for strength.

Even if these other contractors could buy steel as thick as this aluminum (which they cannot), if they were to run out steel sheet-metal that thick through their gutter machine it would bog down or destroy the bearings and rollers in their roll-forming machine.  You simply cannot get thick steel continuous gutters. They do not sell such a sheet metal for continuous gutter machines.

Another extreme example is when I replaced some custom steel gutters on 2 of the local Stuart Anderson Cattle Co. restaurants.  Those steel gutters I removed were so thick they had to be formed in a shop on a powerful hydraulic bender in  10' sections.  Then they had to be torch welded together end to end.  I had to use a steel cutting blade on a circular saw to cut them apart with sparks spraying out!  Even though they had paid a small fortune for these custom super thick steel gutters, they still did not last.  they had rusted through the bottom within 3 decades or less.  Don't be fooled by a slick talking salesman.  It is only a matter of cheap materials and their profit margin they are trying to push steel gutters on you.

Don't just take my word for it; call any metal recycler and ask them how much steel is worth versus aluminum, you will find aluminum is worth over 20 times as much per pound.  Scrap steel is worth only 2 to 4 cents a pound, where aluminum goes for 25 to 45 cents per pound, depending on the current market.

10. Taking my time to do it right:
Truthfully I am a lot slower than most all the other gutter contractors, since I do not rely on employees, and I put so much more into each job.  Many see it as my most important advantage, instead of a drawback.  Being too far booked out I have lost many sales, but I will not sacrifice quality for a larger production volume.  Sometimes I have been late getting started, because of unexpected work required to finish the previous gutter job.  I would have to say I take at least 2 to 3 times longer to replace gutters and downspouts than the average single installer.

One reason I am so slow is because I am willing to do aspects of construction other gutter contractors are not.  A common problem I run across is finding that the drip-edge roof flashing was not installed, or installed incorrectly and has to be replaced.  Some times the wood is too rotten to attach the gutters to. With my 10 year installation warranty (instead of only 1 year), I need to make sure it will last.  With the screws I use to install gutters with I know each time if the attachment is not good, since the screw will strip out and keep spinning. It will not synch down tight and kick back the drill.  I do not use the clutch on my drills to baby this like others might.  If it is not a secure hold I want to know right then.  If so I have to run the screw back out and re-angle the screw, switch to a longer screw, or move the bracket to a more solid section wood.  Sometimes I find the boards are too rotten and need replaced.  I would like to believe that homeowners would want to know if there is a problem, and I am taking this extra care on their house.

To help minimize this, when I prepare to do the gutter work for you, in most cases the gutters are not more than about 40 feet long, so instead of pulling the gutter machine trailer out to your house and need to block the road and parking spaces:
1. I first come out to remove the old gutters and get the exact measurements.
2. I then if they are not too long (40'+) I do most if not all the gutter preparation in my work shop.
3. I then bring the gutters out to your house on rubber pads ready to install.

This means that I am not needing to be there at your house with equipment and noise half as long.  I have been safely transporting long lengths of gutters on my work car for well over a decade now and have not been pulled over by the Police, or had an related accident.  I am a careful driver and have not even had a work related moving violation over the last decade +.

11. Stronger Support Brackets:
I purchase my extra heavy-duty aluminum, or 48oz copper Monster Hidden Hangers from a supplier back East.  They are stronger than what is sold at the local wholesale gutter parts suppliers (reason: supply & demand). This is for the strongest possible support of my gutter systems.

Sales here in the N. W. of professional gutter parts to licensed gutter contractors show that around 95% of gutters are still installed using the old fashion 7" nail spike and ferrule tube to hold the outer edge of the gutter out.  They don't install them that way because nails are better.  It is not even because nails are cheaper or easier to use.  They are not easier.  It is simply because the gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and replace a powerful $300 18v Makita cordless impact driver like I use.  It is a lot cheaper to buy a new or used hammer when their employees steal, damage, or loose them.  That is the real reason that these other contractors will not graduate into the 21st century.

I used nails once, back in early 1992 working for a general contractor before I had gotten my own contractor's license.  I realized right then how terrible those large nails were for installing gutters.  I knew there had to be a better way to do this.  I did some research and found the more modern and improved solution.

I have not use nail spikes to install gutters on any job in over 15 years now (since 1992). I now have found a better source for even stronger brackets than I first used.  (see my Snow Damage web page for details on durability)

Before they came out with a stronger 18v cordless drills back in 1997 I would have to find a place to plug in, some times at a neighbors house.  Then drag my corded drill up and down my ladders to install gutters with screws instead of nails, because I cared that much about quality and my clients satisfaction. 

I have even tried to encourage other gutter contractors to switch over to hidden hangers, but they are simply not interested.  I am too small an outfit to be any sort of competition to compel them to change over in order to compete for business.  If I am to ever see things change, it is up to you to demand better parts and service from contractors you get bids from.

12. Stronger Installation:
I use all stainless steel wood screw installation for a stronger more reliable hold.  I even use 2 screws in each Monster Hidden Hanger (as shown).  That is the equivalent of 1 screw per foot, which is over 4 times the requirement of the building code in this area.

Common sense and the over whelming evidence proves nail spikes do not work.  Most home owners are familiar with these large nails working loose and need pounded back in place. Not that I would ever do this, but even if I were to hammer the screw in, the abrasiveness of the teeth would hole in better than a nail.

Just say NO to gutter spikes!

If there is too much dry rot for a good hold, or the board crack and splits, I will always know it, because the drill will keep spinning as the screw has stripped out the wood and lost all grip.  Most importantly; I will know every time when these screws have a good grip and should hold.  If not, I will change the angle of the screw, use a longer screw, or move the attachment to find some good wood near by.  In cases where there is not enough solid wood in close proximity of where I need to fasten the gutters, I can then discuss with the client options for replacing of those rotten boards.  This also allows for simple adjustment or removal of the gutters latter on, if needed.

I also place the rain-gutter hidden hangers every 2 feet, which is twice as much as building code calls for.  This makes the rain-gutters especially sturdy when leaning a ladder against them and other causes of dents.  They are over twice as sturdy as any conventional installations for that fact alone.

13. Customized Solutions:
With my tested 99% mechanical aptitude, an advanced sense of spatial arrangement, and artistic back ground I offer my clients custom design solutions where needed to best accommodate their special needs.  Something that seems to be quite the rarity in this modern world of mass production and the loss of the craftsman. 

I have begun to sell a great deal of custom copper work to clients across the Nation through my other web site http://copper-by-design.com, which now accounts for a good 50% of my work.  It will only be a matter of time before I can no longer afford to do local gutter installations. Here is an example (8/07) of my custom copper work designing and building this decorative copper chimney for a client's Victorian home in California:

See my Custom Sheet Metal Fabrication web pages for examples of my creativity and problem solving skills.  At the risk of vanity, I seem to have very little competition through out the USA in this area of expertise.

14. Better Endcaps:
Again, I send away for better press-on end-caps than the local suppliers stocks, as well as sealing it better with a more expensive caulk and also pressing the caulk into the seam with my finger, and then sealing it to the elements with spay paint.

Also, as far as I know, I am the only gutter contactor in the Portland Oregon metro area who offers Mitered Endcaps as an option to the ordinary flat press-on endcaps seen to the left. They do cost a little extra, counting as a corner, since it takes about the same amount of labor. I do not claim they will last any better. It is simply an aesthetic issue.

15. Better Caulk for Sealing the Gutters:
For rain-gutters long term water holding reliability end-caps and corners are only as good as the caulk and fasteners used.  In the old days the best way to seal gutters was to solder them together, since they did not have the advanced caulks we have today.  Open flame right near the wood structure has proven to be a dangerous way to seal a gutter and does not work for painted sheet metal or even unpainted aluminum.  It is now best to use caulk and rivets to seal copper gutters.

Because of a low demand for a better caulk from the other gutter contractors in this area, I have to make a special trip to window seal supplier to buy the best caulk that they sell.  It is called PRO-SEAL 34 out of Redmond WA (1 800 349-7325).  This is a higher quality caulk than any of my competitors use, since it cost over 3 times the as much as the caulks sold in the local wholesale professional gutter parts suppliers. 

Using their M-34 Polycarbonate sealant technology, this caulk remains soft and flexible and is rated at 350% expansion after curing, compared to the others at 25 to 50% expansion, since it does not become brittle over time like the most common gutter seals do.

I also double seal the corners and cover the rivet ends inside the gutter.  Then I press the caulk in with my finger.  I then smoothen it out, using spray paint as a solvent, finding places I may have still missed (most installers do not want to get their fingers sticky with caulk). I then spray paint over that, to keep the UV of the sun off the caulk.  I have been using it for over 10 years now, and I have had no caulk related warranty work.

How many gutters have you seen that leak at the corners?

16. Gutter Leveling:
My rain-gutter installation is carefully checked during installation with a level in order to maintain a slight slope towards the outlet.  I have the bubble in the level touch on line to give us my suggested grade, as opposed to centered between the two lines.  This makes for little to no possible standing water in a clean gutter, and better flow for drainage. The wood screw gutter installation method allows for easy adjustment while I am installing my gutter products, or even changes later on, incase of unexpected settling of the house were to occur.

I have found that most installer do not even use a level for most of their jobs.

Ask them and have them put it in writing, and tell them you will be checking them yourself when they care done. And if you hire them, watch them to see if their employees do as their salesperson claimed they would.  You will still need to check it yourself with a level, so you can insist they return to install them correctly.

17. Installation Warranty:
Although the CCB requires Homeowners to file complaints within  a 1 year period of completion of the work licensed contractors do, I provide 10 year labor warranty as a standard. How likely is it that you will discover a problem within the first year and file a complaint in time after that contractor had stalled you for as long as possible, before you realize they will not fix the problem? With the Business Integrity
Award I have received; this is a warranty you can trust. I have offered longer warranties in the past, but at 45 years old (1/63), how much longer can I be expected to be climbing ladders?

18. Rust Free Rivets:
To assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together with aluminum or copper rivets (like used in aircraft construction), instead of the steel zip screws used by most installers. LeafGuard ® included.  Those steel zip screws are quick and easy to use, being one-step insertion, hence their name.  But those steel zip screws are prone to rust within a few years.  They cannot make usable aluminum zip screws, because they need the screw threads to be a harder metal than the aluminum sheet metal or the threads will strip off before they seat the two or three layers of sheet metal together.  I have found a source back East for stainless steel zip screws, but then you still have this large hex head to see as a lump on the outside of the gutters and they would not be the right color.  Simply speaking rivets are the best fastener to use to hold sheet metal parts together, but most gutter contractors do not want to bother with pre-drilling a hole and then switching over to the rivets and riveting tool.

19. More Rivets in Each Corner:
The big thing about professional gutters is for them to be made in custom lengths to fit on your house as seamless as possible. But of course we cannot make a seamless endcap or corner transition, so how I seal them is paramount. As I assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together with a better caulk I also use 11 to 15 fasteners on each corner, depending on  what sort of configuration it is.

As listed above most gutter contractors just use steel zip screws, and very few of them. LeafGuard ® included.  Look closely at the gutters you have now and count the fasteners holding the corners together. If you have ever closely look at aircraft construction they use a lot of rivets close together.

20. Better Outlets
Since my humble beginning of gutter replacement in 1992 I remain one of the only gutter contractors in the country to secure the first elbow under the gutter before installation of the gutters (when possible).  At the outlet drop, I have also been bending the floor of the gutter down into the outlet drop and riveted through the side of the elbow through this flange bent down, to secure the outlet and elbow to the gutter floor. Also sealing it with a better caulk than what the other contractors use.  Leaving no obstruction in the floor of the gutter to begin a dam with debris inside the gutter.  To be consistent with the concept of water flow.  Even though it went against the norm of gutter construction, I (David Rich) was able to quickly figure out how this is the only way these assembly should be done. I challenge anyone to come up with a logical argument as to why not.

21. Stronger Downspouts:
The striped corrugation of the downspouts I use adds a good deal of strength to the thin sheet metal, making them more dent resistant. As opposed to the plain square downspouts you probably have now.

22. Double Riveted Downspout Connections:
I double-rivet each downspout connection, so they are much less likely to fall apart.  I even rivet the first elbow onto the bottom of the gutter, so it will not dislodge from the gutter.  I do leave one connection un-riveted right after that first elbow, so the whole downspout can be removed for painting or other service.

Also see my 'Downspout Comparison' web page to see more about this issue.

23. Downspout Wall Mounts:
For downspout installations; I only use pipe cleats that are riveted into the back of the downspout pipe, which looks much nicer.  I installed them with #2 Philips stainless steel screws for easy removal, with little to no damage, (instead of the straps and nails that most gutter contractors have their employees use).

I have been using these pipe cleats on all my gutter jobs since 1996. I also use a larger pipe cleat that was designed for the 4" wide downspouts.  It has 6 pre-drilled holes for the attachment rivets instead of only 2, so theft of the downspouts would be much more difficult.

24. More Downspout Elbow Options and Custom Fabrication:
Most gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and stock any downspout elbows, and instruct their installers to simply cut the straight downspout pipes and fold them into shape.  In a debris free environment this will work fine, but it makes for a noisy downspout with an annoying dripping noise.  This also makes these downspouts terrible for clogging in most situation.  They also use the smaller plain rectangular downspouts instead of the stronger corrugated downspouts I use.  Those smooth downspouts they use also show dents more visibly that the corrugated type.

I stock over five times as many different types of downspout elbows and manufacture what I cannot buy to provide my clients with a more custom fit to their special house's needs, where most gutter contractors prefer to minimize their inventory down to only 2 different types of elbows; the most common 'A' elbow and the 'B' style shown here over the stone work.

I stock the following elbow configurations:
1. A
2. A offset
3. 1.5" double A offset
4. 2" double A offset
5. 3" double A offset
6. B
7. B offset
8. double B offset
9. funnels to combine 2 downspout into one
10. 3"x 4" A
11. 3"x 4" B
12. 3"x 4" to 2"x 3" reducer
13. custom built open top trays to traffic the rain water back to the siding in areas with very little headroom:

25. Drip-edge Flashing and other custom flashing needs:
I custom make heavy gauge aluminum or copper drip-edge flashing, to use on the many houses that were roofed improperly.  The drip-edge makes sure the water transition from the roofing into the rain-gutter properly, and does not soak under the roofing shingles to rot out the roof plywood, fascia board, or rafter-tails.

I also make matching custom fascia metal covers to better protect the wood behind the gutters, or cover the diagonal rake edge boards of the roof to hide old flaking paint and cracked boards with ugly knots in them.

26. Free Color Choices:
The colors shown here are a close approximation. Your monitor may show them differently and they are likely to print out much different than the colors shown on your monitor, so these colors shown here are not to be relied on for an exact match. This is just to give you a good idea of what colors are available.  If you need one of these color charts mailed to you for an exact match-up let me know and I will get you a set.

The new gutters can be painted to match your trim, but the paint used on this high quality aluminum sheet metal is a baked-on enamel finish, similar to auto paint.

There are 27 color chips on this chart, but not all of these colors may be always available.

I feel it should be a matter of customer service to offer the color of pre-painted gutters that would look best on your house, so I do not charge extra for any of these colors.  I would rather you were happy with the results when I am finished, so the new gutters look like they were meant to go with your house.

You can read more on this issue and concerns at http://dmr-gutters.com/ag/colors.htm

27. Responsive to Calls & E-mails:
I am very reachable by cell phone at all hours and I am the one who will most likely be answering it. I may need to call you back when I am not up on a ladder or driving, but I do not screens calls through my answering machine like many other people. I check e-mail at least twice a day, in the morning and in the evening. I respond to most (non-spam) e-mail within 24 hours.  If you have not received my reply, please call to confirm I got it. In this day of horrid spam troubles, it could have gotten dropped in the automated filtering system.

28. Referrals and Awards:
As shown below, there is also a post card in this hand-out that is stamped and addressed to the BBB in Down Town Portland Oregon.  It asks for an honest review of my work, or even my sales pitch.  If during a job I felt things were not going well with a client, all I have to do is remember this post card and that I cannot afford one negative comment.  Suddenly everything seems to go smoothly.  It is not the Client that needs to make the adjustment.  It is my responsibility.  That is good business.

You can click on these to read more about this and actual referrals

29. Honesty in the Final Cost:
When I finish a job, I of course will know the exact measurements of what was needed to complete the job.  For the last decade+ I have been giving my clients a discounted final price that reflects only what remains on their house.  In my travels, I have yet to hear of another contractor who does this.  I recalculate the measurements of the parts used on my jobs (down to the 1/4") compared to the original bid price, to re-adjust the final price for my clients.  This adjusted price is almost always less money than the original bid, unless more work was needed than the original contract and I had a chance to re-negotiated the contract.  An honesty you will be hard pressed to find elsewhere in any industry!

30. Ethical Responsibility
My work is rivaled by no one, because of my sense of ethical responsibility.  As wrote on my Homepage: If I am not honorable with those of my association, be it business or personal, I have no right to even hope for honesty and reliability in others is a motto I strive to live by and have written web pages on this issue.

I truly go way beyond the call of duty to provide quality work for my clients. Other gutter contractors may be able to crack out several gutter replacement a day, but I typically spend a week or more on most gutter jobs.  You can see the 300+ photos and description of a large copper gutter job I did in late 2004 on a house out in Forest Grove for the Kistlers that took me a month of full time work to complete.

31. Minimum Charge:
Other gutter contractors may charge a higher minimum charge, but I only require a minimum charge of $200 for doing small jobs, and I am happy to do extra work to bring the value to that $200 mark.  There is a $250 minimum charge if I have to use the large 32' ladder to get your job done.  This is a shame that I need to even charge that much, but it is not an uncommon practice, and do I have a substantial overhead, as it breaks up the work day.  I need to make sure it is worth my while.

As stated above, I am willing to do other improvements that would add-up to that minimum charge, but you need to have a good idea of what you might want us to do, as I do not stock all the parts that are in my shop onto the work rig with each trip, so you need to ask us to have those parts with us that will be needed, like leaf screens or Leaf-catchers.

Below is a photo of my
Better Business Bureau's
NW Business Integrity Award
for the year 1998

I was also a 1997 finalist for this same award. See my referral web page to see how I managed to be honored with this special award