DMR Gutters Installation Quality Standards Page

Introduction

DMR's Work Standards for Gutters
The list below explains most of the details regarding our 31 unique advantages over most any other local Gutter Contractors for just basic gutter and downspout installations, which are well above Building Code. These don't even cover the descriptions of the our 'affordable' No-clog option advantages we've done on most gutter jobs over the past 18 years. For a comparison of leaf debris protection for gutters with the different concepts out there and a list of advantages go to my No-clog Comparison web page, which is much more than just a check list you may have seen on other web sites.

To the right is a copy of our cover sheet I have as part of our presentation folder I give each client when providing them a bid. In this presentation folder I also provide a list of my current prices, a copy of the Better Business Bureau's NW Business Integrity Award for the year 1997/98, 10 page FAQ, consumer protection information required by the CCB, along with other consumer protection pamphlet they wrote, and of course a detailed bid with a selection of color options for the pre-painted aluminum gutter parts.

I also supply a physical sample of the gutter I install with a Monster Hidden Hanger screwed in place w/stainless steel screws. If the client is present at the time of the bid I also have a physical example of the Leaf-catcher we make, which has a stronger stainless steel screen in them, along with other samples of parts you will see no where else.

You can click on each picture on this web page to get a better detailed look or link to pages with more detailed information and photos.

1. Our Installation Experience and Ethics:
Doing business as DMR I have been local to the Portland Oregon area since 1985. Your new gutter parts will be installed by a seasoned professional who is the owners of DMR Gutters with an apprentice I've know since he was a young lad. I have a vested interest in my company's reputation, which it seems I cannot pay others enough to care as much. Not installed by workers you never got a chance to meet before hand, as with most any other Contractor (salesman).

I, David Rich have been working in forms of paid construction work since 1980, and was tested in school to have a 99% mechanical aptitude, with a high skill in spatial arrangement, math, and an artistic back ground.

The first paid gig for wood working I got was for a large human skeletal and muscular structure for the life-size Darth Vader I designed and made for the promotions of the Star Wars sequel 'Empire Strikes Back' in 1980 in Salt Lake City Utah, which demonstrates my remarkable ingenuity at just 17 years old.

I have specialized in custom rain management sheet metal fabrication and installation since 1992. In most cases I redesign the replacements to improve their rain management system from what was there before in numerous different ways.

Tia Rich decided to set aside her career in Nursing and Social Work to join David in this line of work full time for a few years, so she understands this work from all angles as well. Tia is also very artistic and has a positive influences on this presentation and the gutter work. She still loves being active in this business, but she has built up her business as a Midwife, so getting her hands covered with spray paint, caulk, and cuts from working with the sheet-metal would not be good for her line of work these days. she does not physically work with David much any more, but is often found with him writing up bids. Her web site for her business is: http://inner-serenity.org.

Other than coffee and tea, I don't use artificial stimulants or depressants on or off work. I have written web pages on the philosophy of good ethics in business and one's personal life to express my feelings on ethical responsibility. You can read more about my background on my Company History web page and Biography web page if you're so inclined.

2. Honest Bidding:
All Contractors are required by the CCB in State of Oregon to provide potential clients with a free realistic bid within their geographical area, so you as the Homeowner can feel free to get several quotes to receive enough information and competitive prices to be able to make the best possible choice of whom to hire.

I would like to believe I am well worth the wait, but I am often booked out several months in advance. I imagine any reasonably decent Contractor will be booked up. If not that is highly suspect as to their reputation.

I encourage you to get several bids to appreciate the advantages I offer. I do not claim to be the cheapest per foot out there, but my bids have still come in thousands less than other prominent Gutter Contractors. Even if my bid is more than other bids you will be hard pressed to find a better value elsewhere for what you get with our service. Use the information on this web page to help interview other Gutter Contractors. Here is a PDF file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.pdf

Other Gutter Contractor's salesmen may claim to have a lower price per foot (without the advantages we offer), yet I've heard from many clients their bids had been hundreds more than mine, if not thousands? I suppose that is very telling of what to expect of such dishonest salespersons. This can only mean they had falsified inflated measurements, so they can claim a lower price per foot, yet still make more money than I.

If you are just doing research for a future date, or you're a bit nervous about suffering a high-pressure sales pitch, you can go to my Latest News page to see just how easy it is to write-up an estimate for yourself. This will give you a good idea of what costs you can expect. More importantly it will help keep you from getting swindled by less ethical Gutter Contractors with inflated measurements if you know your numbers beforehand. You can also have me work-up a no pressure bid through e-mail with those measurements and a few digital photos to see if there's any complications to factor in.

Another important detail you are not likely to get from any other Contractor is how our bid puts a ceiling cost on the project, unless more work is added to the contract, but the final price is usually a bit less than the original quote. I will use the measurements I got after the installation is completed to recalculate your cost down to 1/4" of what actually stayed on your house, so you are not paying for the loose measurements listed on my bid, or any cut-off waste. At the same price per foot you only pay for what remains on your house. I have been doing this on each gutter job for the last 20 years. This detail is even listed on our bid sheet, as shown in the image below.

You can read more about my thoughts on Ethical Responsibility.

3. A More Detailed Bid and Presentation:
The image below shows the detailed 2 part carbonless paper copy bid chart I personally designed in Adobe Pagemaker. It will have all your house measurements and a concise break-down of what parts are needed to do your job, as seen on the right example sheet. No BS here. It comes with my standard presentation folder which consists of a 3 ring binder that has a dozen other printed sheets of information.

Click above to look over my custom gutter bid chart in more detail.
You can also print it out to fill in, so other Gutter Contractors cannot take advantage of you with inflated measurements.

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for easy printing:
http://dmr-gutters.com/BidChart.pdf

My bids are free to you as long as you are local to us in the Portland, Oregon Metro area.

4. Most Detailed Web Site
I do not mean to brag here, but I have personally spent thousands of hours creating and updating this informative web site since 1996 with 85 web pages on this site and 227 web pages on copper-by-design.com with over 6,400 clear digital photographs to demonstrate what I am talking about. You may not care about gutters enough to read all of what I have provided, but it is here if you do. I could add a lot more, but with all this content what more is needed? I have been focusing on my custom copper work web site more these days, but gutter replacement is still what we book with most. It's just nice to be more creative and work out of the rain at times.

I clearly seem to have the most comprehensive web site on rain management in the world. I challenge you to find a Gutter Contractor's web site any where in this country that is even 1/10th as comprehensive as this Just finding a site with images that enlarge to full screen to get a better look seems to be very rare. Not to mention the cost of this comprehensive web site. This shows how a good presentation and shared information is very important to me, and my attention to detail.

5. Environmentally Friendly - Go Green!:
Saving Fuel:
I use a more fuel efficient work vehicle than a conventional trucks with their gutter machine mounted in the bed. I transport my gutter machine on a separate trailer, to reduce fuel consumption, since well over 90% of my driving does not require my gutter machine to be with me. I even do most of the fabrication work at my shop. Thus reducing the number of trip to the job site. I often do not need to haul the gutter machine trailer to the job site this way. Also savings you from days of unsightly construction and noise.

I have worked with thousands of Out-of-State clients on-line, so I am better able to handle many bids through e-mail, with a little help from savvy Homeowners like you (given you had taken the time to read this far).

Construction Pollution:
We'll come over to remove the old gutters and get measurement. Then doing most of the fabrication work at my shop allows for better control over noise pollution, visual pollution, and construction debris at your house. The installation goes pretty swiftly once the gutters are prepped and ready to install. We do not use hammers to attach these parts, so there is not that sort of pounding noise to suffer.

Construction Debris:
I also do not leave even small construction debris behind at a job site, other than dust. Even the small rivet ends and sheet metal scrap cut-off gets saved and recycled along with the old gutters. I have a 95% recycle rate with my construction work debris. Few Contractors can make this claim. You would be hard pressed to find one small scrap left on the ground, other than maybe some tiny metal shavings.

Noise Pollution:

I do often like to listen to music while working, but we also have headphones to wear if that's an issue. Feel free to comment on this if it is at all a problem for you. We do not mind, and would much rather you were not discomforted.

I have yet to discover a quiet saw to cut downspouts with, but my 24v Bosch cordless miter chop saw does cut downspout to length at least 10 times faster than a hack saws used by other Gutter Contractor's employees. This help to minimizing the drawn out time of that shrill noise. Which is another reason I refuse to install steel gutter parts, since this saw cannot be used on steel, since steel would break the carbide teeth off the saw blade. My impact drill for running screws in is a bit louder than a normal drill, but I do not imagine it is louder than hammering in those 7" nail spikes still used to hang most gutters by other Gutter Contractors.

To help minimize this noise in most cases we prepare the gutter parts here at our shop. As long as they are not over 45 feet long, which is 95% of the gutters we've installed. Instead of towing our gutter machine trailer out to your house and need to block the street and parking spaces in front of your house:
1. We first come out to remove the old gutters and get the exact measurements.
2. We do most if not all the gutter preparation in my work shop.
3. We then bring the prepped gutters out to your house safely on rubber pads ready to install. I know this is unorthodox, but we exceed Oregon State road safety regulations, and over the last 2 decades of doing this we've never been involved in an accident while transporting gutters this way, or even been ticketed. I am a careful driver and have not even had a work related moving violation over the last decade +.

This means that I am not needing to be there at your house with equipment and noise half as long.

6. The Type or Style of Gutters I Install:
I have just the one gutter machine to produce a 5-K style gutter. I may be limited with just this one gutter profile, but this is functionally the best gutter profile at a reasonable cost. Let me explain: I have had very little request for the larger more expensive K-6 gutter, so it seems irrelevant. Something to consider is how if the outlet is still the same small size then the size of the gutter would not help it's function. Even if the gutter were as large as a bath tub it would not work any better with such a small outlet that cannot drain any faster and is quick to clog.

Classic Half Round Gutters: Where it comes to other gutter profiles I will not install an inferior gutter due to my rigid quality standards and ethics. I have turned down several high-end copper gutter jobs because the Builder insisted on the old style half round gutter profile. Only because they would not be worth installing if they were half the cost. Although they are more expensive. There are several reasons that style had been made obsolete over half a century ago. My FAQ web page goes into those details about why other gutter profiles are so dysfunctional, and even look horrid on a house. Once you better understand the history and development of gutter profiles throughout the last century it will make much more sense to you. It explains why the K-5 design came about in the first place.

It is a wrestle to balance function, aesthetics, longevity, and cost together, but there are some inherent problems with each of the other gutter profiles. A larger gutter for houses is pointless: when the outlet clogs you may have 5 minutes, in stead of just 3 minutes before it overflows. A larger outlet w/o a strainer in it will make a much greater difference to keep the outlet from getting damned up with debris. My aim is to build you a system that will continue to function, so you do not have to scale the roof in the worst of weather when you realize you have a problem.

Fascia Gutters: These are very commonly seen on houses built within the last 4 decades, but I've been contracted to replace so many of these gutters on numerous houses less than 5 years old. Long before they started to rust out. That should tell you something about how poorly they function managing your rain run-off.

Continuous aluminum gutters used to be the standard several decades ago. It was used in most of the ads as the buzz words, and Homeowners began to expected all metal gutters were made with aluminum. Although, new Construction Builders continued to install cheap steel gutters, since it is not required by Building Code to have rust free gutters. All they are required to offer is material that will hold up to a one year warranty and steel sufficed. Sadly this demonstrates their clear lack of ethics. Think about what other corners they cut building your dream house. Even gutters seen on the Street of Dreams homes do not compare to what we do on each job.

My K-5 style rain-gutter roll-forming machine produces a gutter that has numerous advantages over all the other gutter profiles, ie: a wider bottom, which lets the debris travel sideways easier, and allows for a larger outlet option, which can reduce the most common area of rain-gutter failure. (see 'faq' section for more details). I appreciate a Clients concerns for their aesthetic interests, but with such strong disadvantages with the other gutter profiles they are just not practical. There simply is no need for more options when you have the best gutter profile on the market at a reasonable cost.

This style is also making a big come back in housing fashion, since the fascia gutters had been predominately used for new construction in the larger cities since the early 70's and has become passé. Housing architecture is going away from the plain boxy look, and towards a more classic ornate styling with wrap-around porches and 8 sided turrets, so this wood molding shape is a good accent to these styles. Much like you see with the finest kitchen cabinetry these days moving away from the plain modern look that started back in the 60's.

The most important issue to me is not the shape of the gutter, but how well they are installed and function with minimal maintenance. In a word; planned obsolescence. Most homeowners are familiar with those long gutter spikes coming loose, and the clear advantage of screws. what would you rather have? A pair of stainless steel screws every 2', or 1 large nail placed 4' apart? I've removed heavy steel gutters that were only a few years old pulled off with my bare hands with very little effort. Some gutters we've removed were nailed as little as an 8' span with just one nail, and nails what were too short no less.

7. Higher Quality Well Protected Gutter Machine:
I spent an extra $1,500 on my gutter machine for the extra rack of rollers to bend a safety hem on the back wall of the gutter to help keep it stronger and straighter across to the roof edge. It also provides an open hem to push the no-clip hidden hanger up into the back of the gutter, again keeping the gap to the roof line as tight as possible. A detail you will not find elsewhere.

It may not be uncommon to have a portable rain-gutter roll forming machine used to run out custom continuous lengths of seamless sheet-metal gutters (pictured here), but very few Gutter Contractors have their machine on a covered trailer, so it is not a dirty rust bucket, like most roll-forming gutter machines you'll see on the road.

Most Gutter Contractors leave their gutter machine exposed to the elements on the back of their truck or on an uncovered trailer. The manufacturers of roll forming gutter machines may install a few stainless steel rollers, but they do not make these machines with stainless steel bearings. They are not even galvanized steel. They have no protective coating to resist rust. Many of the rollers are just raw mild steel as well. Many of the bearing races are in direct contact with the pre-painted gutter material, so pretty much all other gutter machines out there are riddled with rusty rollers and bearings within the first year of operation, which will scratch the paint and even dent the new rain-gutters. Within 5 years those gutter machines are only worth their scrap metal value.

I have one of the few gutter roll-forming machines that has been kept out of the elements since it was new. I have already had to replace about a dozen bearings in it due to rust just from condensation in the air. I also keep my machine free of gutter coil when not in use; as recommended by the manufacturer. This avoids dust and debris build-up from settling in the partially formed gutter, which can cause dents in the gutter, and cause rust to develop on those rollers faster.

This is a serious issue most people would not have considered. When getting other bids ask them to show you what condition their gutter machine is in. As an example I had to rent a K-6 gutter machine for a large copper gutter job I did back in 2000. That machine was just 2 years old, but the guillotine was so rusted it would not move. It took me several hours to free it up with WD-40 and hammers. Then I tried to just rotate the spool holding the copper coil, which was going the wrong direction, but the bolt to loosen the lock was so seized up with rust it broke off instead of turning. That bolt must not have been even galvanized. Luckily I was making copper gutters and did not need to worry about scratching up a paint surface, but I was not happy with the results of those gutters run through that relatively new gutter machine.

You can see and read about the design and fabrication of the trailer shell I made to cover my gutter machine and keep it as dry as possible on my Gutter Machine web pages.

8. Only Rust Free Gutters:
I will only install rust free sheet metal gutters in aluminum or copper with rust free support brackets and stainless steel screws on each gutter job. Plastic gutters may not rust, but they will not last even as long as steel gutters. I have been told by the wholesale gutter suppliers I am the only Gutter Contractor to consistently buy the better parts.

Aluminum sheet metal had become cost efficient back in the late 60's and was used as a catch-phrase in advertising, so most of the Gutter Contractors in this area had converted over to aluminum gutter parts. Although, still to this day new construction never stopped using painted steel sheet-metal, which is not even galvanized. It is cheaper and the CCB only requires a 1 year warranty on any construction preformed buy a Licensed Contractors.

As an example: it would not change the cost of a car more than 5% to be made of a metal that will not rust, yet all the Auto Manufacturers remain stuck on using steel in their frames and most of their body panels, even though the Acura sports car shown here demonstrates we had the technology to do it right in a production line car a 1/4 century back. Even the suspension parts are engineered in cast aluminum alloy. It would be great to see aluminum or other light weight strong materials used more, so there is much less wasted labor and materials, not to mention a greater landfill problem, since many rusty steel and plastic gutters are not recycled.

If called on it, those Gutter Contractors will claim they use only steel for your benefit. They will try to convince you steel gutters are much stronger than aluminum. This is a lie and they know it. Beside the fact that; damaged gutters accounts for less than 10% of gutter replacements, compared to the replacement of rusted out steel gutters, which is around 70%. The steel being used for gutters is much thinner. These Gutter Contractors cannot get steel which is as thick as the aluminum used for gutters. Even if they could, it would destroy the bearings in their roll-forming gutter machine, and bog it down, burning out the motor.

Before they ever came out with aluminum gutters, building code officials required a much thicker aluminum sheet metal to be used to compensate for this issue of aluminum being a softer metal. A very high grade of aluminum alloy sheet metal is used for gutters. For example; the recycle value of that aluminum used for rain gutters is higher than most other grades of aluminum.

Another extreme example: I replaced some super thick custom steel gutters on 2 of the local Stuart Anderson Cattle Co. Restaurants back in 1997. Those steel gutters I removed were so thick they had to be formed in a shop on a powerful hydraulic bender in 10' sections and welded together end to end. I had to use a steel cutting blade on a circular saw to cut them apart with sparks spraying out! Even though they had paid a fortune for those custom steel gutters, they still did not last. They had rusted through the bottom within a couple decades. Don't be fooled by a slick talking salesman. It is only a matter of cheap materials and their profit margin they are really interested in, which is why they try to push steel gutters on you.

Don't just take my word for it; call any metal recycler and ask them how much steel is worth versus aluminum, you will find aluminum is worth over 8 times as much per pound. Scrap steel is worth only about 6 cents a pound, where aluminum goes for around 52 cents per pound as of 6/13. Although, the new material price spread is not nearly that wide.

9. Taking time to do it right:
Truthfully I am a good deal slower than most any other Gutter Contractor, since I do not rely on large crews to do the work. I put much more into each job than they would at any price. You could see our not being so fast as our most important advantage, instead of a drawback. Being booked out so far have lost many sales, but I will not sacrifice quality for a larger production volume. Sometimes I have been late getting started, because of unexpected work required to finish the previous gutter job. I would have to say I take at 2 to 3 times longer to replace a gutter system than the average Gutter Contractor per man.

One reason I am so slow is because I am willing to do aspects of prep and construction work other Gutter Contractors are not capable or willing to do at any cost. A common problem I run across is finding that the drip-edge roof flashing was not installed, or installed incorrectly and should be replaced. Some times the wood is too rotten to attach the new gutters to. With my 15 year installation warranty (instead of only 1 year), I need to make sure it will hold up. With the screws I use to install gutters I know each time if the attachment is good or not, since the screw will strip out and keep spinning if the board were to crack or there is just too much dry-rot around the screw threads. It will not synch down tight and kick back the drill. I do not use the clutch on my drills to baby this like others might.

If it is not a secure hold I want to know right then. If so I will know I have to run the screw back out and re-angle the screw, switch to a longer screw, or move the bracket to a more solid section wood. Sometimes I find the boards are so rotten they need replaced, but that is less than 20%. I would like to believe the Homeowner would want to know if there is a problem, and I am taking this extra care on their house to do it right.

Another issue is how most Gutter Contractors do not want to bother with pre-drilling a hole and then switching over to hand riveting tool. It takes too long, so they have their installers use steel zip-screws in stead, which will rust and have 3X larger heads that show on the outside of the gutter parts.

Leveling the gutters properly is also another reason my work takes longer. From what I have witnessed most installer just mount the gutter straight with the roof line. They don't bother to use a level. I live by the level. I work hard to get a slight grade to drain towards each outlet. We even crimp the back wall of the gutter over each outlet to make the gutter dip there, so it is sloped downwards on both sides of the outlets.

10. Stronger Support Brackets:
I purchase my extra heavy-duty 0.063 aluminum, or 48oz copper Monster Hidden Hangers from a supplier back East. They are stronger than any hidden hangers sold at the local wholesale gutter parts suppliers (reason: supply & demand). This is for the strongest possible support of my gutter systems. Why use a life-time metal if they are not installed well?

Sales here in the N. W. of professional gutter parts to Licensed Gutter Contractors show that over 80% of gutters are still installed using the old school 7" nail spike and ferrule tube to support gutters. They don't install them that way because nails are better. It is not even because nails are cheaper or easier to use. They are not easier. It is simply because the Gutter Contractors are too cheap to buy and replace a powerful $300 18v cordless impact driver like I use, each time their employees steal, damage, or loose them. That is the real reason those other Gutter Contractors will not graduate into the 21st century.

Nails are for Neanderthals!

I used nails once, back in early 1991 working for a general contractor before I had gotten my own Contractor's License. I realized right then how terrible those nails were for installing gutters. I knew there had to be a better way to do this. I did some research and found this more modern approach to gutter installation. I have not use nail spikes to install gutters on any job in over 18 years now (since 1992). I now have found a better source for even stronger brackets than I had first used. (see my Snow Damage web page for details on durability)

Before they came out with a stronger 18v cordless drills back in 1997 I would have to find a place to plug in, some times at a neighbors house. Then drag my corded drill up and down the ladder to install gutters with screws instead of nails, because I cared that much about quality and my clients satisfaction.

I have even tried to encourage other Gutter Contractors to switch over to hidden hangers, but they are simply not interested. I am too small an outfit to be any sort of real competition to compel them to change over in order to compete for business. If we are to ever see things change it is up to you to demand better parts and service from Contractors you get bids from.

11. Stronger Installation w/Stainless Steel Screws:
I use thicker #12 stainless steel screws for gutter installation for a stronger more reliable hold of the gutters and downspouts. I even use 2 screws in each Monster Hidden Hanger (as shown). That is the equivalent of 1 screw per foot, which is over 8 times the requirement of Building Code in this area; of just 1 nail per 4'.

Common sense and the over whelming evidence proves nail spikes do not work. Most Homeowners are familiar with these long nails working loose, and then need pounded back in place each time they're up there to clean out their gutters. Not that I would ever do this, but even if I were to hammer the screw in; the abrasiveness of the teeth would hold in better than those silly nails.

Just say NO to nails!

If there is too much dry rot for a good hold, or the board crack and splits, I will always know it, because the drill will keep spinning as the screw has stripped out the wood and lost all grip. Most importantly; I will know every time when these screws have a good grip and should hold. If not, I will change the angle of the screw, use a longer screw, or move the attachment to find some good wood near by. In cases where there is not enough solid wood in close proximity of where I need to fasten the gutters, I can then discuss with the client options for replacing of those rotten boards. This also allows for simple adjustment or removal of the gutters latter on, if needed.

I also place the rain-gutter hidden hangers every 2 feet, which is twice as much as building code calls for. This makes the rain-gutters especially sturdy when leaning a ladder against them and other causes of dents. They are over twice as sturdy as any conventional installations for that fact alone.

12. Customized Solutions:
With my tested 99% mechanical aptitude, an advanced sense of spatial arrangement, and artistic back ground I offer my clients custom design solutions where needed to best accommodate their special needs. Something that seems to be quite the rarity in this modern world of mass production and the loss of the craftsman.

I have begun to sell a great deal of custom copper work to clients across the Nation through my other web site http://copper-by-design.com, which now accounts for a good 50% of my work. I've begun an apprenticeship program to find young workers who share my ethics for quality. Here is an example of my custom copper work designing in building this decorative copper chimney for a client's Victorian home in California:

See my Custom Sheet Metal Fabrication web pages for more examples of my creativity and problem solving skills. At the risk of vanity I seem to have very little competition through out the USA in this area of expertise.

13. Better End-cap Options:
As well as sealing it better with a more expensive caulk and also pressing the caulk into the seam with my finger and then sealing it to the elements with spay paint, I'm one of the only Gutter Contractors who offers a Mitered End-cap option seen on the right.

They do cost a little extra; counting the same as a corner, since it takes about the same amount of labor. I do not claim they will last any better. It is simply an aesthetic issue, but they are more durable with a thicker sheet metal than the standard end-caps seen on the left. I am not one to insist on a detail like this, so it is only around 10 to 15% of my aluminum gutter clients who go for this option, but it is more like 90% of my copper gutter clients who want this option.

14. Better Caulk for Sealing the Gutters:
For rain-gutters long term water holding reliability of end-caps and corners are only as good as the caulk and fasteners used. In the old days the best way to seal gutters was to solder them together, since they did not have the advanced caulks we have today. Open flame right near the wood structure has proven to be a dangerous way to seal a gutter and does not work for painted sheet metal or even unpainted aluminum. It is now best to use caulk and rivets to seal even copper gutters.

Because of the high cost and low demand for a better caulk from the other Gutter Contractors in this area I have to make a special trip to a window seal supplier called Pacific Putty to buy the best caulk they sell, which runs over 3X the cost used by most Gutter Contractors. It is called PRO-SEAL 34 out of Redmond WA (1 800 349-7325). This is a higher quality caulk than any of my competitors use, since it is so expensive and not sold at the local wholesale professional gutter parts suppliers.

Using their M-34 Polycarbonate sealant technology, this caulk remains soft and flexible and is rated at 350% expansion after curing, compared to the others at 25 to 50% expansion, since it does not become brittle over time like the most common gutter seals do.

We also double seal each corners and cover the rivet ends inside the gutter. Then I press the caulk deep in the seam with a finger. We then smoothen it out again with a finger using spray paint as a solvent, finding places we may have still missed (most installers do not want to get their fingers sticky with caulk). I then spray paint over that, to keep the UV of the Sun off this caulk. I have been using it for about 15 years now, and I have had no caulk related warranty issues.

I started using Geocel for the first few years, but I have been using Proseal 34 for the last 15 years to seal corners and end-caps in aluminum and copper gutters. It is pricy, but it seems to work well, and can be applied in wet weather. It has a plastic tube, so it will not burst when the tube gets a little wet. It may not do well with an extreme pull test, since it's chief advantage is it's claim to a 350% expansion rating.

Although, the most common failure is not the sealant releasing. It's because the Installer failing to implements the expansion joints needed in long gutter runs. If a gutter is more than 40' with corners on each end I split the gutter in the middle capping off the ends. I then cap over the pair of end-caps, so it cannot leak between them. I also add a 1' piece of gutter with the floor bent a little wider to cover the end-caps, so the 1/2" gap is hidden. This relieves a great deal of tension from the corners as temperatures change and stretch the metal different than the wood structure.

Goops to seal rusty gutters are a waste of time. It may stick to the rust for a while, but the rust will not stay attached to the steel. Then the goop will just hide moisture under the separation, which will then rust the gutter even faster.

How many gutters have you seen that leak at the corners?

15. Gutter Leveling:
I agree it makes no sense, but I've found this is a terribly overlooked issue with most Gutter Contractors. My rain-gutter installation is carefully checked during installation with a level in order to maintain a slight slope towards the outlet. I have the bubble in the level touch one line to give us a suggested grade, as opposed to centered between the two lines. This makes sure there's no possible of standing water in a clean gutter, and better flow for drainage. The wood screw gutter installation method I use allows for easy adjustment while I am installing my gutter lengths, or even changes later on, incase of unexpected settling of the house decades later.

I have found that most installers do not even use a level. They just place them straight with the roof-line and call it good. Often times it only takes and inch of debris near the outlet to cause the gutter to over-flow at the other end of the gutter. They can just say how it is not their responsibility to keep your gutters perfectly clean, but that still means even when they are clean they may have as much as 4" of standing water in the other end of the gutter.

Ask them about this issue when getting bids and have them put it in writing that they will make sure there is no standing water in the new gutters they install. Also tell them you will be checking them for yourself when they care done with a garden hose. And if you hire them, watch them to see if their employees do as that salesperson claimed they would. You will still need to check it yourself with a level or do a water test, so you can insist they return to install them correctly, but most likely they will damage the new gutters trying to grade them differently. Fascia style gutters cannot be even leveled, let alone given a proper grade towards the outlets, because of the inward lip on the back wall of the gutter that has to rest over the plywood of the roof.

I even crimp the back wall of the gutters over the outlets, so they will dip at the outlet and drain downwards from both sides. Another detail I have not seen any other Gutter Contractor do.

16. Installation Warranty:
I provide 10 year labor warranty as a standard (see our Warranty page). With the Business Integrity Award I have received my warranty is one you can trust. I have offered longer warranties in the past, but at 49 years old (1/63), how much longer can I be expected to be climbing ladders? I've seriously hurt my back twice already in the last few years with ladders I have a Son who was born in 2000, but for all I know he may want to become a florist? I plan to run this business for the rest of my days, but I resist making unrealistic claims.

Many Contractors will intentionally mislead their clients with material warranties, as if it were their installation warranty. They will not be obligated to stand by their work when push comes to shove beyond that first year. The problem you run into with most Contractors is how the CCB requires Homeowners to have filed a valid complaints within 1 year period from completion of any work by Licensed Contractors, or it is thrown out as invalid. How likely is it that you will discover a problem within that first year? Then have exhausted your efforts to resolve this issue with your Contractor after he did what he could to stall you for as long as possible, in order to be file a complaint in time with the CCB, once you've realized they will not fix the problem? I've even heard clients tell me they were threatened with physical violence by their Contractor if they pursued a complaint.

17. Rust Free Rivets in stead of zip-screws:
We assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together with aluminum or copper rivets (like used in aircraft construction), instead of the steel zip screws used by most installers. LeafGuard ® included. Those steel zip screws are quick and easy to use, being one-step insertion, hence their name. But those steel zip screws are prone to rust within a few years. They cannot make usable aluminum zip screws, because they need the screw threads to be a harder metal than the aluminum sheet metal or the threads will strip off before they seat the two or three layers of sheet metal together. I have found a source back East for stainless steel zip screws, but then you still have a large hex head to see as a much larger lump on the outside of the gutters. They also would not be the right color.

Simply speaking rivets are the best fastener to use to hold sheet metal parts together where parts cannot be soldered or spot-welded together, but most Gutter Contractors do not want to bother with pre-drilling a hole and then switching over to hand riveting tool. It takes too long.

18. More Fasteners in Each Corner:
As you see here the big thing about professional gutters is for them to be made in custom lengths to fit on your house as seamless as possible. Of course we cannot make a seamless end-cap or corner transition, so how we seal them is paramount. As I assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together I use a better caulk than others and I also use 11 to 15 fasteners on each corner, depending on what sort of configuration or angle it has. The norm is only 4 to 5 fasteners on each corner with other Gutter Contractors, so that means I'm using twice as many fasteners.

As listed above most Gutter Contractors just use steel zip screws, and very few of them. LeafGuard ® included. Look closely at the gutters you have now and count the fasteners holding the corners together. If you have ever closely look at aircraft construction they use a lot of rivets very close together.

19. Double Sealing the Corners and Flattening the Floor Rivets
I double sealed my joints between the layers of overlapping metal and again inside the gutter along the edges of metal and over the dozen rivets as well after I had hammered then down flat inside. Then I use the touch-up paint as a solvent to smooth the caulk again with my finger to seal spots I might have missed inside the gutter with the first attempt to spread the caulk. Then I spray it again over the caulk to help keep the Sun off the caulk for as long as that will last. I am anal like that.

To clarify I do not worry about flattening the rivets in the front and back wall of the gutter. Just the 5 rivets across the floor seam. For an opposing force I use a steel palm size weight used for auto dent work, which has a slight convex curve on one side. I hold it under the floor of the gutter with the rise centered under the rivet head I'm going to hammer down flat. This helps to makes it so there's less to catch debris on there in the corner. It also makes it a lot easier to spread the caulk over them to make sure they are fully sealed. I use that as motivation not to get lazy and neglect to flatten them down with each corner.

20. Better Outlets
Beside the larger No-clog outlet option we offer our clients; since my humble beginning of gutter replacement in 1993 I remain one of the only Gutter Contractors in the country to secure the first elbow under the gutter before installation of the gutters (where possible). At the outlet drop we also bend the floor of the gutter down into the elbow riveted through the side of that elbow in through this flange bent down to secure the elbow to the gutter floor. Also sealing it with a better caulk than what the other Gutter Contractors use. This leaves no obstruction in the floor of the gutter to catch on and form a dam with debris inside the gutter. This is consistent with the concept of water flow.

Even though it went against the norm of gutter construction, I (David Rich) was able to quickly figure out how this is the only way these assembly should be done. I had seen too many elbows become dislodged from the gutter, so this seems to be the only way it should be done, but again I seem to be the only Gutter Contractor in our area doing it this way. I challenge anyone to come up with a logical argument against this, yet I seem to stand alone with this logical reasoning.

This also allows for a 125% larger outlet than using the preformed outlet parts they use. The outlet size is a much more important detail that the size of your gutter. Even if your gutter was as large as a bath tub, yet the outlet was still that same small size it will clog just a quickly. These plus size elbows shown in this photo offer an outlet size that is 3X larger than standard. I even have a Super Outlet that lets me open the floor of the gutter 9" wide for even better functionality.

21. Stronger Downspouts:
The striped corrugation of the downspouts I use adds a good deal of strength to the thin sheet metal, making them more dent resistant. As opposed to the plain square downspouts you probably have now.

22. Double Riveted Downspout Connections:
I double-rivet each downspout connection, so they are much less likely to fall apart. I even rivet the first elbow onto the bottom of the gutter, so it will not dislodge from the gutter. I do leave one connection un-riveted right after that first elbow, so the whole downspout can be removed for painting or other servicing.

Also see my 'Downspout Comparison' web page to see more about this issue.

23. Better Downspout Pipe Wall Mounts:
For DSP (downspout pipe) wall attachment I have been using a better pipe cleat on all my gutter jobs since 1996. In early 2005 I switched over to even larger stronger pipe cleats, which were designed for a larger 3x4 DSP. These are fastened to the back of the DSP w/6 rivets, in stead of just 2 rivets for the smaller pipe cleats, so it has 3X better attachment. These look nicer than the straps over the downspout most commonly seen and do not allow for the DSP to slip down and become detached, which is a common problem with ordinary installations. I also mount the DSP with #12 stainless steel screws for easy removal many decades later for painting or any other servicing needed, with little to no damage. No nails! We even predrill the screw hole in the siding, so it is less likely to crack it.

(instead of the straps nailed into the siding, which most Gutter Contractors have their installers do)

24. More Downspout Elbow Options and Custom Fabrication:
Most Gutter Contractors are too cheap to buy and stock any downspout elbows, and instruct their installers to simply cut the straight downspout pipes and fold them into shape. In a debris free environment this will work fine, but it makes for a noisy downspout with an annoying dripping noise. This also makes these downspouts terrible for clogging in most situation. They also use the smaller plain rectangular downspouts instead of the stronger corrugated downspouts I use. Those smooth downspouts they use also show dents more visibly than the corrugated type.

I stock over five times as many different types of downspout elbows and manufacture what I cannot buy to provide my clients with a more custom fit to their special house's needs, where most Gutter Contractors prefer to minimize their inventory down to only 2 different types of elbows; the most common 'A' elbow and the 'B' style shown here over the stone work.

I use the following elbow configurations:
1. 2X3 A elbows (most common)
2. 3X4 A elbows (industrial size for larger No-clog outlets)
3. 2X3 & 3X4 A offset
4. 1.5" double A offset
5. 2" double A offset
6. 3" double A offset
7. 2X3 B elbows (formed with the bends side ways)
8. 3X4 B elbows
9. B offset
10. double B offset
11. 2X3 funnel (to combine 2 downspout into one)
12. 3"x 4" funnel
13. 3"x 4" to 2"x 3" reducer
14. 2X3 Leaf-catcher
15. 3X4 Leaf-catcher
16. 3X4 upper to 2X3 lower Leaf-catcher
17. rain-chain outlets
18. copper rain-cups w/optional SS security cable
19. wall mounted rain-cups w/custom back splash plate
20. rain barrels for irrigation water harvesting during the Spring, Summer, and Fall Months, but easily adapts to a normal storm drain system for Winter months when no watering is done.
21. simple scupper
21. custom scupper designs:
http://copper-by-design.com/cw/scuppers.htm
22. custom built open top trays to deliver the rain water back to the siding in areas w/very little headroom (as seen below right):

Also see my 'Downspout Comparison' web page to see more about these options.

25. Drip-edge Flashing and other custom flashing needs:
I have the facility to form most any custom heavy gauge aluminum or copper flashing to use for the many houses that were roofed improperly. The drip-edge makes sure the water transition from the roofing into the rain-gutter properly, and does not soak under the roofing shingles to rot out the roof plywood. Fascia board covers and many other unique applications, like how I also make matching custom diagonal rake edge board covers to hide old flaking paint and cracked boards with ugly knots in them, which is usually cheaper than to have a painter come strip the wood and repaint.

E-mail DMR Gutters
for a free no-obligation estimate, for the
finest in rain management.
.as long as you are local to the Portland Oregon area

Itemized bookmarked links to the many DMR Gutters advantages
1. Installation Experience	12. Customized Solutions	23. Downspout Mounts
2. Honest Free Bidding	13. Better End-caps	24. More DS Elbows
3. Detailed Bids	14. Better Caulk for Sealing	25. Drip-edge Flashing +
4. Most Detailed Web site	15. Gutter Leveling	26. 27 Free Color Choices
5. Go Green!	16. Longer Warranty	27. Responsive to Calls & E-mail
6. Shape Design & Size	17. Rust-free Rivets	28. Referrals & Awards
7. Better Gutter Machine	18. More rivets in corners	29. Honesty in the Final Cost
8. Rust-free Gutter Parts	19. Flattened Floor Rivets	30. Ethical Responsibility
9. Take Time to Do it Right	20. Better Outlets	31. My Minimum Charges
10. Stronger Support brackets	21. Stronger Downspouts	Compare Debris Protection
11. Strongest Attachment	22. Double Riveted DS Parts	Contact Information
Even if you do not happen to be local to us in the Portland, Oregon area you would do well to use this information to help you interview other Gutter Contractors. Here's a link to a PDF file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.pdf