Updated 3-2-2008
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Introduction |
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DMR's Work Standards for Gutters To the right is a copy of the cover sheet I have as part of my presentation folder that I give each client when providing them a bid. In this presentation folder I also provide a list of my current prices, a copy of the Better Business Bureau's NW Business Integrity Award for the year 1997/98, 10 page FAQ, consumer protection information required by the CCB with another consumer protection pamphlet they wrote, a pre-stamped postcard addressed to the Better Business Bureau for written comments of my work or even sales presentation, and of course the detailed bid with a selection of color options for the pre-painted aluminum gutter parts. I also supply a physical sample of the gutters I install with a Monster Hidden Hanger screwed in place and a sample of the hinged screen I use. If the client is present at the time of the bid I also demonstrate a physical samples of the Leaf-catcher I make. You can click on each picture on this web page to get a better detailed look or link to pages with more detailed information. |
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1. Installation
Experience and Ethics: I, David Rich have been working in forms of paid construction work since 1980, and was tested in school to have a 99% mechanical aptitude, with a high skill in spatial arrangement, and an artistic back ground. The first paid gig for wood working I got was for a large human skeletal and muscular structure for the life-size Darth Vader I designed and made for the promotions of the Star Wars sequel 'Empire Strikes Back' in 1980 in Salt Lake City Utah.
I have specialized in sheet metal gutter
custom fabrication and installation since 1992. In most cases
I
redesign the replacements to improve the drainage from what was there
before. Tia Rich is not only an attractive female, but she decided to set aside her career in Nursing and Social Work to join David in this line of work full time for a few years, so she understands this work from all angles as well. Tia is also very artistic and has a positive influences on this presentation and the gutter work. She still loves being active in this business, but she has built up her business as a metaphysical healer/counselor, hypno-therapist, Doula Birth Support, and is getting her degree in Midwifery. Getting her hands covered with spray paint, caulk, and cuts from working with the sheet-metal would not be good for her line of work, so she does not physically work with David much these days, but is often found with him writing up bids. Her web site for that work is: http://inner-serenity.org. Other than coffee and tea, I don't use artificial stimulants, always working sober. I have written web pages on the philosophy of good ethics in business and one's personal life to express my feelings on ethical responsibility. You can read more about my background on my Company History web page and Biography web page. |
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2.
Honest Bidding: I would like to believe I am well worth the wait, but I am often booked out half a year in advance. I encourage you to get several bids to appreciate the advantages that I offer. I do not claim to be the cheapest per foot out there, but for what you get with my service, I feel you will be hard pressed to find a better bargain. Use the information on this web page to help interview other gutter contractors. Here is a Word doc file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.doc Without these advantages offered I have heard how other gutter contractor's sales teams have claimed to sell their gutters for a lower price per foot, but for some reason their bids have been hundreds more than mine? I suppose that is very telling of what to expect of such dishonest salesperson, that they would falsify measurements, so they can claim a lower price per foot and still make more money than I. If you are just doing research for a future date, or are a bit nervous about getting a bid from me, you can go to my Latest News page to see how easy it is to write-up an estimate for yourself. This will give you a good idea of what costs to expect. More importantly it will help keep you from getting robbed by another gutter contractor with inflated measurements. You can also have me try to work-up a no pressure bid through e-mail with your measurements and a few digital photos. You can read more about my thoughts on Ethical Responsibility. |
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3. A More
Detailed Bid and Presentation:
Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file: My bids are free to you (as long as you are local to us), even thought beside the cost of gasoline my standard presentation folder and materials cost us about $10 each. Not to mention the cost of this comprehensive web site, which I have personally invested thousands of hours to create and maintain. This shows how a good presentation and sharing of important information is very important to me. |
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4. Most Detailed
Web
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5.
Environmental Protection:
Construction
Debris
Pollution As to noise pollution: I have yet to discover a quiet saw to cut downspouts with, but my 24v Bosch cordless miter chop saw does cut downspout to length at least 10 times faster than a hack saws used by those other gutter contractors employees. This help to minimizing the time of that shrill noise. Another reason I refuse to install steel gutter parts, since this saw cannot be used on steel, because it would break the carbide teeth off the saw blade. My impact drill for running screws in is a bit loud, but I do not imagine it is louder than hammering in those 7" nail spikes still used to hang most gutters. |
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I turned down the largest copper gutter bid I had ever done in late 2003, worth over $20k. All because the owners insisted on half-round gutters w/the round downspouts. I was going through their general contractor, so I was not able to speak with the owners to explain this issue. My FAQ web page goes into detail about why these and other gutter profiles are very dysfunctional, and even look horrid on a house. Once you better understand the history and development of gutters throughout the last century it will make more sense. It explains why the K-5 design came about in the first place. Fascia gutters are very commonly seen on
houses built within the last 3 decades, but when I have been contracted
to replace these gutters on several houses less than 5 years old, this
should tell you something about how poorly they work to manage the rain
run-off. Continuous aluminum gutters used to be the standard
several decades ago. It was used in most all the adds as the new
buzz words, and home owners began to expected all metal gutters to be
aluminum. New-housing construction companies had gradually
reverted away from aluminum gutters to cut costs, reverting back to
installing cheap steel gutters, since it is not required by the building code
here. All they are required to offer is material that will hold up to a one year warranty! My K-5 style rain-gutter roll-forming machine produces a gutter that has numerous advantages over all the other gutter profiles, ie: a wider bottom, which lets the debris travel sideways easier, and allows for the larger outlet option, which can reduce the most common area of rain-gutter clogging. (see 'faq' section for more details). There is no need for more options when you have the best profile at a reasonable cost. This style is also making a come back in housing fashions, since the fascia gutters has been predominately used for new construction in the larger cities since the 70's. Housing architecture is going away from the plain boxy look, and more towards a classic ornate styling; with wrap-around porches and 8 sided turrets. This wood molding shape is a good accent to this look. The most important problem is not the shape of the gutter, but what the gutter is made of. Around 40 years ago aluminum was the catch-word used to sell gutters and siding, once aluminum became available and cost efficient. Most all gutter contractors had switched over from using steel to using aluminum in order to stay competitive. But when it came to the point that I expected gutters to all be made of aluminum, it stopped being the phrase to identify the better gutter contractors. These gutter companies stopped using that catch-word in their advertising, and gradually switched back over to using steel again, since it is sooo much cheaper. I would see more cars made of aluminum if the number crunchers did not see the long term financial benefit to sticking with steel for car frames and body panels. In a word; planned obsolescence. It would not change the cost of a car more than 10% to be made of a metal that will not rust. The Acura sports car shown here demonstrates I do have the technology to do it right. Even the suspension parts are engineered in aluminum alloy. It would be great to see aluminum used more, so there is much less wasted labor and materials, not to mention the greater landfill problem, since many rusty steel and plastic gutters are not recycled (plastic gutters will not last even as long as steel gutters).
Before they ever came out with aluminum gutters, building code officials required a much thicker aluminum sheet metal, to compensate for this issue of aluminum being a softer metal. A very high grade of aluminum alloy sheet metal is used for gutters. For example; the recycle value of that aluminum used for rain gutters is better than most other grades of aluminum. |
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It may not be uncommon to have a portable rain-gutter roll forming machine used to run out custom continuous lengths of seamless sheet-metal gutters (pictured here), but few have their machine on a covered trailer, so it is not a rust bucket, like most roll-forming gutter machines you will see on the road (see below). |
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8.
A Well Protected Gutter Machine:
Honestly, this is a serious issue. When getting bids, ask them to show you what condition their gutter machine is in. As an example I had to rent a K-6 gutter machine once for a large copper gutter job. That machine was only a couple years old, but the guillotine was rusted solid and would not work. It took me several hours to free it up with WD-40 and hammers. Then I tried to just rotate the spool holding the copper coil, but the bolt to loosen the lock was so seized up it broke off instead of turning. That bolt must not have been even galvanized. Luckily I was making copper gutters and did not need to worry about scratching up the paint surface, but I was not happy with the results. You can see and read about the design and fabrication of the trailer shell I made to cover my gutter machine and keep it as dry as possible on my 5 Gutter Machine web pages. |
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9.
Rust Free Gutters:
If called on it, they will try to BS you; claiming that steel gutters are stronger than aluminum, but this is a lie, and they know it. When they first developed the aluminum gutters, the code enforcement officials were not stupid. They knew aluminum is a softer metal, so they required that for gutters it had to be about twice as think, to compensate for strength. Even if these other contractors could buy steel as thick as this aluminum (which they cannot), if they were to run out steel sheet-metal that thick through their gutter machine it would bog down or destroy the bearings and rollers in their roll-forming machine. You simply cannot get thick steel continuous gutters. They do not sell such a sheet metal for continuous gutter machines. Another extreme example is when I replaced some custom steel gutters on 2 of the local Stuart Anderson Cattle Co. restaurants. Those steel gutters I removed were so thick they had to be formed in a shop on a powerful hydraulic bender in 10' sections. Then they had to be torch welded together end to end. I had to use a steel cutting blade on a circular saw to cut them apart with sparks spraying out! Even though they had paid a small fortune for these custom super thick steel gutters, they still did not last. they had rusted through the bottom within 3 decades or less. Don't be fooled by a slick talking salesman. It is only a matter of cheap materials and their profit margin they are trying to push steel gutters on you. Don't just take my word for it; call any metal recycler and ask them how much steel is worth versus aluminum, you will find aluminum is worth over 20 times as much per pound. Scrap steel is worth only 2 to 4 cents a pound, where aluminum goes for 25 to 45 cents per pound, depending on the current market. |
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10. Taking my time to do it
right: One reason I am so slow is because I am willing to do aspects of construction other gutter contractors are not. A common problem I run across is finding that the drip-edge roof flashing was not installed, or installed incorrectly and has to be replaced. Some times the wood is too rotten to attach the gutters to. With my 10 year installation warranty (instead of only 1 year), I need to make sure it will last. With the screws I use to install gutters with I know each time if the attachment is not good, since the screw will strip out and keep spinning. It will not synch down tight and kick back the drill. I do not use the clutch on my drills to baby this like others might. If it is not a secure hold I want to know right then. If so I have to run the screw back out and re-angle the screw, switch to a longer screw, or move the bracket to a more solid section wood. Sometimes I find the boards are too rotten and need replaced. I would like to believe that homeowners would want to know if there is a problem, and I am taking this extra care on their house. To help minimize this, when I prepare to do the gutter work for you, in most cases the gutters
are not more than about 40 feet long, so instead of pulling the gutter
machine trailer out to your house and need to block the road and parking
spaces: This means that I am not needing to be there at your house with equipment and noise half as long. I have been safely transporting long lengths of gutters on my work car for well over a decade now and have not been pulled over by the Police, or had an related accident. I am a careful driver and have not even had a work related moving violation over the last decade +. |
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11. Stronger Support Brackets: Sales here in the N. W. of professional gutter parts to licensed gutter contractors show that around 95% of gutters are still installed using the old fashion 7" nail spike and ferrule tube to hold the outer edge of the gutter out. They don't install them that way because nails are better. It is not even because nails are cheaper or easier to use. They are not easier. It is simply because the gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and replace a powerful $300 18v Makita cordless impact driver like I use. It is a lot cheaper to buy a new or used hammer when their employees steal, damage, or loose them. That is the real reason that these other contractors will not graduate into the 21st century. I used nails once, back in early 1992 working for a general contractor before I had gotten my own contractor's license. I realized right then how terrible those large nails were for installing gutters. I knew there had to be a better way to do this. I did some research and found the more modern and improved solution. I have not use nail spikes to install gutters on any job in over 15 years now (since 1992). I now have found a better source for even stronger brackets than I first used. (see my Snow Damage web page for details on durability) Before they came out with a stronger 18v cordless drills back in 1997 I would have to find a place to plug in, some times at a neighbors house. Then drag my corded drill up and down my ladders to install gutters with screws instead of nails, because I cared that much about quality and my clients satisfaction. I have even tried to encourage other gutter contractors to switch over to hidden hangers, but they are simply not interested. I am too small an outfit to be any sort of competition to compel them to change over in order to compete for business. If I am to ever see things change, it is up to you to demand better parts and service from contractors you get bids from. |
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12. Stronger
Installation: Common sense and the over whelming evidence proves nail spikes do not work. Most home owners are familiar with these large nails working loose and need pounded back in place. Not that I would ever do this, but even if I were to hammer the screw in, the abrasiveness of the teeth would hole in better than a nail. Just say NO to gutter spikes! If there is too much dry rot for a good hold, or the board crack and splits, I will always know it, because the drill will keep spinning as the screw has stripped out the wood and lost all grip. Most importantly; I will know every time when these screws have a good grip and should hold. If not, I will change the angle of the screw, use a longer screw, or move the attachment to find some good wood near by. In cases where there is not enough solid wood in close proximity of where I need to fasten the gutters, I can then discuss with the client options for replacing of those rotten boards. This also allows for simple adjustment or removal of the gutters latter on, if needed. I also place the rain-gutter hidden hangers every 2 feet, which is twice as much as building code calls for. This makes the rain-gutters especially sturdy when leaning a ladder against them and other causes of dents. They are over twice as sturdy as any conventional installations for that fact alone. |
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13.
Customized Solutions: I have begun to sell a great deal of custom copper work to clients across the Nation through my other web site http://copper-by-design.com, which now accounts for a good 50% of my work. It will only be a matter of time before I can no longer afford to do local gutter installations. Here is an example (8/07) of my custom copper work designing and building this decorative copper chimney for a client's Victorian home in California: See my Custom Sheet Metal Fabrication web pages for examples of my creativity and problem solving skills. At the risk of vanity, I seem to have very little competition through out the USA in this area of expertise. |
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14.
Better Endcaps: Also, as far as I know, I am the only gutter contactor in the Portland Oregon metro area who offers Mitered Endcaps as an option to the ordinary flat press-on endcaps seen to the left. They do cost a little extra, counting as a corner, since it takes about the same amount of labor. I do not claim they will last any better. It is simply an aesthetic issue. |
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15. Better
Caulk for Sealing the Gutters: Because of a low demand for a better caulk from the other gutter contractors in this area, I have to make a special trip to window seal supplier to buy the best caulk that they sell. It is called PRO-SEAL 34 out of Redmond WA (1 800 349-7325). This is a higher quality caulk than any of my competitors use, since it cost over 3 times the as much as the caulks sold in the local wholesale professional gutter parts suppliers. Using their M-34 Polycarbonate sealant technology, this caulk remains soft and flexible and is rated at 350% expansion after curing, compared to the others at 25 to 50% expansion, since it does not become brittle over time like the most common gutter seals do. I also double seal the corners and cover the rivet ends inside the gutter. Then I press the caulk in with my finger. I then smoothen it out, using spray paint as a solvent, finding places I may have still missed (most installers do not want to get their fingers sticky with caulk). I then spray paint over that, to keep the UV of the sun off the caulk. I have been using it for over 10 years now, and I have had no caulk related warranty work. How many gutters have you seen that leak at the corners? |
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16. Gutter
Leveling: I have found that most installer do not even use a level for most of their jobs. Ask them and have them put it in writing, and tell them you will be checking them yourself when they care done. And if you hire them, watch them to see if their employees do as their salesperson claimed they would. You will still need to check it yourself with a level, so you can insist they return to install them correctly. |
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17. Installation
Warranty: |
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As listed above most gutter contractors just use steel zip screws, and very few of them. LeafGuard ® included. Look closely at the gutters you have now and count the fasteners holding the corners together. If you have ever closely look at aircraft construction they use a lot of rivets close together. |
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20. Better Outlets |
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21. Stronger
Downspouts: |
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22.
Double Riveted Downspout Connections: Also see my 'Downspout Comparison' web page to see more about this issue. |
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I have been using these pipe cleats on all my gutter jobs since 1996. I also use a larger pipe cleat that was designed for the 4" wide downspouts. It has 6 pre-drilled holes for the attachment rivets instead of only 2, so theft of the downspouts would be much more difficult. |
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I stock over five times as many different types of downspout elbows and manufacture what I cannot buy to provide my clients with a more custom fit to their special house's needs, where most gutter contractors prefer to minimize their inventory down to only 2 different types of elbows; the most common 'A' elbow and the 'B' style shown here over the stone work. I stock the following elbow configurations: |
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25. Drip-edge
Flashing and other custom flashing needs: I also make matching custom fascia metal covers to better protect the wood behind the gutters, or cover the diagonal rake edge boards of the roof to hide old flaking paint and cracked boards with ugly knots in them. |
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26.
Free
Color Choices: The new gutters can be painted to match your trim, but the paint used on this high quality aluminum sheet metal is a baked-on enamel finish, similar to auto paint. There are 27 color chips on this chart, but not all of these colors may be always available. I feel it should be a matter of customer service to offer the color of pre-painted gutters that would look best on your house, so I do not charge extra for any of these colors. I would rather you were happy with the results when I am finished, so the new gutters look like they were meant to go with your house. You can read more on this issue and concerns at http://dmr-gutters.com/ag/colors.htm |
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27. Responsive to
Calls & E-mails: |
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28.
Referrals and Awards:
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29. Honesty in the Final
Cost: |
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30. Ethical
Responsibility I truly go way beyond the call of duty to provide quality work for my clients. Other gutter contractors may be able to crack out several gutter replacement a day, but I typically spend a week or more on most gutter jobs. You can see the 300+ photos and description of a large copper gutter job I did in late 2004 on a house out in Forest Grove for the Kistlers that took me a month of full time work to complete. |
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31. Minimum
Charge: As stated above, I am willing to do other improvements that would add-up to that minimum charge, but you need to have a good idea of what you might want us to do, as I do not stock all the parts that are in my shop onto the work rig with each trip, so you need to ask us to have those parts with us that will be needed, like leaf screens or Leaf-catchers. |
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The
Comparison to My
No-clog Gutter System Above is an actual LEAFGUARD® gutter cross section profile that I have to show clients the clear difference
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E-mail DMR Gutters
for a free no-obligation estimate, for the
finest in rain
management.
.as long as you
are local to the Portland Oregon area
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Other
Helpful Roofing Information For some valuable advice with regards to roofing and rain management issues check out my:
(a)
Gutter Debris Protection
Options web pages for answers and solutions that could save you thousands of $ and a great deal of anguish. If you do find this information very helpful, feel free to send us a $ tip for the assistance I so freely have published on the web here for your benefit, like you might tip a waitress. Heck, send us a gift certificate for a candle lit dinner for two. <LOL> |
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Below is a
photo of my |
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I was also a 1997 finalist for this same award. See my referral web page to see how I managed to be honored with this special award |
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